#238 | Our Eldest Fan Shares Her Wisdom with Today's Young Mothers

In this heartwarming episode, we met with the woman we believe is our oldest and wisest podcast fan and devout member of our Patreon community: Lee Roversi, a CSA farm owner in Hawaii, mother of three adult children, and grandmother. Lee begins by reflecting on her upbringing in Connecticut during the 1950s and how it shaped her perspective on motherhood. Her traditional family background contrasted with her later path toward holistic childbirth choices. Lee's story unfolds with anecdotes from her three home births, defying the norm of hospital deliveries at the time. Her first childbirth experience, in Manhattan with a midwife, was marked by a marathon 36-hour labor, yet it was a transformative experience that set her on a unique path.

Lee spent most of her time with us sharing her thoughts on the changing landscape of childbirth practices over the decades. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing the inner strength within every birthing woman -- a lesson she learned firsthand. Lee's journey wasn't without its challenges, but her conviction in the power of intuition and her commitment to natural childbirth prevailed.

The conversation takes a poignant turn as Lee discusses the significance of postpartum support and community. She highlights the value of support groups like La Leche League and the importance of maintaining connections in the age of isolation. Lee's heartfelt advice to new mothers centers on cherishing the fleeting moments of early motherhood and finding solace in the knowledge that women are never alone in their struggles.

We engaged in a heartfelt dialogue about the transformative journey of motherhood, the power of community, and the enduring strength of the human spirit. This episode reminds us to savor the precious moments of motherhood, to seek support and connection, and to trust in our innate abilities as women.

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Transcript

People always say you were so brave to have a home birth. And I say people who go to the hospital are even braver, it was never part of my thinking. If I was able, in the 80s, and into 1990, when my last son was born, to do this, with conviction, and with a deep understanding that I was able to do it, I think that anyone can hear yourself, we don't listen to our intuition.

I'm Cynthia Overgard, owner of HypnoBirthing of Connecticut, childbirth advocate and postpartum support specialist. And I'm Trisha Ludwig, certified nurse midwife and international board certified lactation consultant. And this is the Down To Birth Podcast. Childbirth is something we're made to do. But how do we have our safest and most satisfying experience in today's medical culture? Let's dispel the myths and get down to birth.

I am Lee Roversi. Somehow we think the oldest listener of down to birth with incredible pleasure, I am a birth and mothering all the way through to 30 Somethings junkie. And I found you all when my daughter in law was pregnant. And I've listened to every episode, as has she and as has my daughter who now has a delicious baby herself. And I thank you for all you do, because I know that you know, but it's important you have the perspective of how vital it is of what you have out there. And I'm stoked at the number of listeners you now have. It's very exciting.

Thank you, Lee. It's a true honor and pleasure to have you we have seen you and gotten to know you over the years as a devout follower. And it's very touching and meaningful to us. Because when we started this podcast we had on you know, some women like Peggy out, Mara, who had mothering magazine for years. And I know you were a fan of that as we were and you know, when you've been in this industry long enough, you do start to see that the public does have a short memory, you see that this field is changing, the beliefs are on birth are changing, and some of the greats are, are getting quite a lot older and talking about retiring. And, you know, I hope that there are a lot of us left who are carrying the torch of what those great women have done in the 60s and 70s for the rest of us that we're all benefiting from. It's just so great that you were in that movement. It's very exciting to us that you were in that movement, and that you were one of the very, you know, the pioneers who started to change birth culturally, by participating in your own empowered home births. So we would just love to hear a little bit about your life. What does that era was like for you. birth was a nightmare for the rest of women in our society back then. And just what led you to those decisions and what perspective you have. Okay.

I always wanted to be a mother, I was like the quintessential doll and babysitter into my teens. And yet in my 20s It was definitely not a path for me. I was living in Manhattan, I was in advertising. It was a fast lane. It was fun. It was incredibly lucrative, and a little heart and mind bending. But I was very fortunate to meet the man who became the father of all three of my children and is still a really good friend, although we're not married anymore. And we knew we wanted to have children. And yet, I don't ever think I really thought about a hospital birth, which is very odd. All things considered. I found mothering magazine, and through that, learned a lot and also became personal friends with Peggy and we are still very good friends. She's coming to visit soon. I hope we keep talking about it. We didn't know that. She's, she's an incredible person and as you know, inspired 1000s of women and and families I have to say. So when we became pregnant with my now just turned 40 year old son, which is bizarre in its own right. People always say you were so brave to have a home birth and I say people who go to the hospital or even braver. It was never part of my thinking. And I guess mothering had a lot to do with that. But it was also fortunately my exposure to anything medical was really limited. I'm happy to say. So finding a midwife in Manhattan was not easy. Oddly enough. This was 1983 and we did find a woman who looking back was somewhere between the walls and my age. I think she was in her 60s and her daughter was training with her, which was amazing. So into the apartment they come weary early in labor, I called her way too early. She didn't seem to care. She was there for two and a half days, literally lying on my couch. I have a picture of her reading. I don't know if you ever read the book midwives. Anyway, she's reading it to a novel, she's lying on my couch reading it. And I had a 36 hour labor and she never doubted she never did anything, but just give me hugs and check, I don't know, twice, probably in two and a half days. And after 36 hours of labor, Skye Jesse was born in our Manhattan apartment on a sweltering July 7. And her the daughter cooked us breakfast Lily was her name, I keep meaning to try and find out if she's still practicing. She, and where's her mom? Probably not with us. So that was the start of what became a journey of three times over. And it was people say 36 hours, 36 hours. It was 36 hours. And it's what it took. And I joke now that he still doesn't want to be here some days. He's a really sensitive, sweet soul. And I think it just took that long for both of us. But we managed. We walked the streets of New York, which there is a little sweet aside on that. It was like three in the morning and we're walking. I lived on 37th between Park and Lexington and we're walking and I'm leaning against a granite building in the throes of you know something. And Chad tries to come up to me and I pushed him away like I bet not now, and a hooker approaches him and tries to pull him in, at which point around and literally gravelled. I'm not sure if I growled because of the contraction or I just growled at her, growled at her, at which point, obviously she left. But that's just an aside. So that was the first one.

Just for fun. Did she know that his wife was in labor right there leaning against a building

she might have after I growled and proceeded to show her what was an immense, beautiful belly.

So leave my first birth was also 36 hours, they had also started in New York City. I gave birth at home in Connecticut, but I was four days, you know, past my due date. And at that time, I still sort of believed in due dates. And I was a little eager and antsy. And so I was like, I'm gonna go to the city because I know if I go into the city, I will go into labor. And within two hours of getting into the city, fam, I had my first contraction. And of course a new labor would be probably long since it was first baby. So I went out to dinner anyway and stayed in the city. And it was a rainy night in the city and very hard to catch cab. But things started to really pick up at dinner. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I gotta get back to Connecticut three and a half hours back to where I was in Connecticut. I finally found a cab and then got to our car and made the journey home and my daughter didn't end up being born until so that was like 11pm. She wasn't born until 1030. The next night, so more than 24 hours later, 36 hours in total. And same thing. She's a very sensitive child who needs a lot of space to herself. Yep. Well, who knows. That New York City thing is like one of the most unusual birth stories we've ever played on the podcast, and I can't believe you've never shared it before. It's not the first time I've said it. I mean, you went into the city because you figured maybe it'll help me go into labor. So it worked. And then you still work for dinner and a half hours from home. I mean, I got home at about 131 30

in the morning. Of course, I my midwife was not she was not happy with me though. I'll tell you she was like, what were you thinking? I mean, it's hilarious. I was thinking that I needed to get this going. And it works.

And that is really one of the things I love about you all, almost every podcast even after all your hours and all you've shared. 

Lee, you've seen what's gone on in society through the years and you live a beautiful life. I wish everyone could see you're sitting on your gorgeous farm in Hawaii right now. You're you had to book this podcast very early morning for you because you're off to an early morning yoga class when we're finished recording. You are just someone who lives according to her own values, which I really believe is how we achieve the ultimate happiness in life. What have you seen changed through the decades with birth thing What is it about us these two years ago when you found us these two younger new podcasters coming out what resonated for you? I just am so curious to know that you were already informed. You thought you had already seen a lot. You're friends with Peggy O'Mara, for heaven's sake, what is it?

Several things you have both of you have a way of coming across. That is clear. It is not riddled with God, I don't know how to say it. I do not want. I don't want to label or pin anything down. But I've lived in Hawaii for 35 years. And there is an airy fairy aspect to everything here. And in the name of spirituality, which, believe me I hold incredibly dear to myself. But you all obviously have your own rich inner lives. It's very obvious, but you still come across. Without that, oh, it's really hard to find real don't want to offend people because

I know what you're saying. We all know how childbirth educators and doulas and midwives are portrayed in the movies, they're always weirdos.

Like, often, it doesn't take away from their skill by any stretch in

the movies, in the movies. They're running with what society believes or perceives as a kernel of truth. And I guess what you're saying is there's a practicality or a matter of factness, but what, but what, what is needed? What do you want the younger new generation? Yeah, what is it, you want them to know that you don't want them to lose?

I want to know, the women and the people supporting them, their whatever, whoever they are, whether they're parents, whether their husbands, whether they're partners, is that they have the strength, if, if I was able, in the 80s, and into 1990, when my last son was born, to do this, with conviction, and with a deep understanding that I was able to do it. I think that anyone can, and I understand that there are circumstances, obviously I lived it with my daughter, there are circumstances, but we have so much more strength than we think we do. And I think that they need to know that. And I think as you say it here, everybody listen, there's a lot of really good, solid information out there that wasn't even available to me necessarily. But hear yourself. We don't listen to our intuition. And I knew all along, I could do this three times over. I actually it's a good thing I started late because I would have kept doing it. So yeah, it is it is very hard for women to come to choose homebirth the first time around. In fact, we have an entire episode dedicated to that topic. I myself like you was that girl who wanted to have babies and be a mother from the time I was 10 years old. I mean, any baby I could get my hands on, I was trying to mother. And you know, the second I could have a child I did. At 26. I had my first one. But I didn't come to home birth because I really believed at that time that home birth was the right path. For me, I came to home birth because I looked at my options. And hospital birth at Yale school or a hospital births in a Yale medical institution was the only option with the health insurance that was provided by the school which had extremely limited choices there. There was no midwife option, it was only an OB and when I realized that that was the only way I was going to be able to give birth, I had to go outside the system. And that's how I came to home birth. And as I've shared before my professor at the time, I was lucky enough to have a home birth midwife professor at the Yale School of Nursing, which was really unusual in itself. She had a unique position there. And she insisted, this is how you're having your baby or not having your baby over there. You're doing this with me. And thank goodness she did because I obviously believe deeply in home birth and wish that we could help more women understand that having a home birth the first time is really the best time there's this the sense that mothers have to prove that they can give birth before they can safely do it at home. But it wasn't my cup for you know, it really wasn't. But there is that factor also, which I didn't bring up other than not really wanting the hospital experience. New York was even then extremely higher tech and more apt to I don't know what the statistics were. I'd be curious. I don't think it was 30 to 50%. But it was up there in terms of cesarean section. So that was a factor also. It was around 10% in the 80s. Or was it but it's pretty incredible that you notice that because that really came along to a very unsuspecting population. And I, you know, even the World Health Organization didn't catch wind of it until the mid 80s. And they started to say, Whoa, what's going on over there in the US? Why is it already 10% When it reached just 5% in 1970, after decades have always been between like two and four and a half percent. So it's just very surprising to me that, um, what were your What was your upbringing? Like? What were your parents like?

Extremely, I grew up in Connecticut, how I grew up. Yes. And that's where my an Connecticut is where my second baby was born. So that's the other we have a very clear connection there, too. I still miss New England. But even after 35 years here. I had a really traditional suburban Connecticut upbringing with a dad who commuted to New York with an upper level management job and a mom who stayed home and four children very, very regular. Very 50s. It was a great time to grow up. And in Connecticut, for sure. I think the 50s were a great time to grow up anyway. Period, for sure. Yeah. I look back on it with you know, and if you talk to most people, or many people my age who grew up in the 50s, they have a very, very sweet spot there. But yeah, it was very, they weren't hippies. Oh, my God, you were too young to be a hippie yourself.

Were you Was your family supportive? of absolutely no, no, my family was not supportive. No one in my family, not my siblings, not my parents. I had one really dear friend who is still my dearest friend, who still lives in Manhattan, oddly enough, who was incredibly supportive and who was there? But no, I had very little support, which is why the other postpartum became incredibly important also, but we don't need to get into that. But I did find Lecce League and I still had mothering and Peggy, thank heavens. So yeah, no, I did not have any support. I had a very supportive husband. He was all all in every time.

And did you have a hard time finding a midwife who would do a home birth in the city at that time?

Yes, but I did. And I, you, knowing I was going to talk to you today really made me curious where her daughter is, I'll see if I can find her off. I'll dive on that later.

So you made a reference to postpartum? What was that? Like?

Skye was, gosh, I do hate the term colic, but I'm gonna use it for lack of a better word he was he was upset at being there. And I was new, and we had a rough start. But we settled. Probably within, you know, I always say three months is magical, which you guys know is true. But I think we were a little bit faster nursing came really easily, I'm thrilled to say I made mistakes, not knowing how highly sensitive he was, as a person literally having nothing to do. I mean, babies are obviously, but you know, I had, I was out and on the subway within, you know, three weeks. And I think it was all a lot until I realized I really need it took me probably three weeks to realize I really needed to pull in. And once I did that things got a lot smoother. And then probably when I was about six weeks old, I found a late J League meeting and I have women friends from that group that I'm still friends with little ha league for me was a complete lifeline in terms of meeting other women who were on the same path. And yes, it had the nursing aspect, of course, but it was so much more than that. Obviously, it you know, went into co sleeping it went into relationships with our husbands and how that was changing. It went into how our parents were feeling anyway, it was a it reminds me of what you're doing. Cynthia, with your postpartum groups, it was a true, full on Postpartum Support Group, not just about nursing, although that was what brought us all together.

And that is the missing ingredient for postpartum moms is a space and a community that they can turn to on a regular basis to talk about all of the things that you just mentioned. It's such a massive transition in life in such an isolating time for new moms. And there are so few resources available. And La Leche League is a wonderful one that you know, I wish more people would know about and take advantage of it's still a very reactive organization, and moms just need a place to go. It really should be sort of like a mandatory thing that you're signed up for after you have a baby, or at least given the information. Exactly. You probably have a lot to say on that, Cynthia, the main thing I have to say about it is just that I feel sad for everyone who doesn't have community connection support group. And somehow in every other nation, they deemed it critical. So it's within the law of every other nation in the world, and just not here. And the problem with that, further is when women suffer here, they genuinely believe it's just them. They don't realize the emotions they're experiencing are normal, the isolation is normal, the light than monotonous lifestyle, and being uncomfortable with that monotony is normal. That bouts of resentment are struggling, the relationship, the anxiety about the baby, they just think it's them and as Americans, in addition to that, we are all whether we're aware of it or not. We go around with a smile on our faces, you know, the classic American like, how are you? Good, how are you? Great. And, you know, so when that lonely mom goes out to the supermarket with her baby, she throws on her best possible smile. So that's all she sees when she sees other women with babies, and she thinks they're all doing well. And only she isn't. You know, you'd once you let your hair down in a community of other women who are in it with you, it's very life changing, and very touched to hear how you've collected friends all throughout your life. Despite that you've moved so far away to Hawaii. I guess you can probably speak to the value of finding like minded friends.

Yes, I certainly can. But I also think what we forget, what I forgot, and learned is that it takes an effort. As any relationship does, obviously, my relationship with my children still takes an effort, although, you know, obviously, the base is there. maintaining relationships with friends, especially if it's long distance, which it is for me, for several friends, takes work, you have to be willing to pick up the phone, you have to be willing to dash that card in the mail. I I cannot emphasize enough about sending real cards. But I know that's very old school. I feel that there are people. And when I got divorced, I really realized this because obviously even though it was amicable and as kind as it could be, it still left me untethered, of course, and at a time, at one point, I thought about leaving kawaii and trying to figure something else out because we had this sort of perfect scene here. And everybody looked up to that. And people were like, ah, if Lee and Chad can't make it, what chance do any of us have? And I remember thinking, I can't leave. This is a life that, yes, we built together. But it's also my home, I have a tremendous community here that supports me. And I lay there one night, in the middle of the night, and I thought if something if I really needed to reach out, who could I call. And I actually sat up and picked up my journal and wrote and there were truly dozens of people that would have responded to me in the middle of the night of wherever they were. And some of them were here and some of them were in New York and somewhere in Santa Fe, they were everywhere. And I realized that richness is something you can't take for granted. But it's also something you can't let slide you have to you have to maintain those connections and and when you do the richness, the and the reward is so worth it.

I mean, what is life about other than relationships, honestly, like everything else fades everything else, you know, is a temporary high, all the other things that we seek material things and experiences and all that but connection is what keeps us going and that's why the blue zone living lifestyle is so healthy.

I still haven't watched that I have to I -

I haven't either, but I've just learned bits and pieces about it. And then I know the main thing is the connection, then within the community that and that they're very active outdoor lifestyle but which also you have. But connection is the key. In fact, isolation. And loneliness is the fastest way to kill a person. Yeah. You know when people feel isolated, lonely, ostracized, whatever that is like a death sentence.

I can only imagine, fortunately, I can only imagine.

Well, that was an excellent piece of advice. I really enjoyed listening to that I, my best friend from college, never fails to send me a birthday card every year. And we talk and we text and it doesn't matter, she she still calls and sings happy birthday to me, but there's a card in the mail every year, so she has me making damn sure I never miss her birthday with a card. Because I wouldn't, I would never receive one without sending one back. And it is a beautiful quality that this generation doesn't. Now we used to write letters, you know, I mean, we used to write each other letters when my brothers were in college, we wrote each other letters all the time. And those letters were very special. Um, what else? Have you observed about changes? Or what do you what do you wish this generation of mothers knew? Or had? Or what do you wish they would do to enhance their lives?

Wow. Well, from my perspective, which obviously is gathered over many years, truly, please recognize how short this time with newborns and young babies and toddlers and even elementary school children is, it's gone in the blink of an eye. And as hard as it is, and I am not diminishing that. I remember, days that seemed like years in my life with little children. It's so fast. And I know you hear that. You hear it from again and again, hopefully, but to recognize that, and you touched on something earlier also, of knowing that there are other mothers going through the same thing. There's many references that I've seen in poetry and in different places about nursing in the middle of the night, a sick baby, and in the dark by the light of the moon and realizing that there are hundreds of other women around the world doing exactly the same thing at the same time.

Millions there's 150 million babies born per year, I believe there's literally millions, there's probably 1000s in your own county in a populated county. But what do you say I also know from being from running my Postpartum Support Group. I know how guilty women sometimes feel when they're reminded that it's going fast, because they're not having the best time. And they love their babies. But the reason they're not having the best time necessarily is it's a lot of strain in the marriage. It's financial strain, it's they're living in a different body, it's the anxiety because of the attachment to the baby. So when a loving person comes along and says, Oh, my goodness, it goes so quick. They interpreted through the eyes of guilt. How would you like them to hear it instead?

I understand that guilt. I really do. I still have days with, you know, children, ranging right now from 33 to 40, where I feel guilty about something I've said or done. So I understand. And I certainly did when they were little, but and I don't know, the support thing just keeps coming up for me, because that's how I got through many a day like that was just calling a friend and saying, you know, forget everything that needs to be done or should be done. In my case, let's get the kids and I'll meet you at the beach. And I think that we don't do that enough. We have so many we need to do this. We're such an achiever.

And it's, it's so hard for us to ask for others help. It's so it you know, it's always that conversation of like, oh, well, if you're free, if you're not, don't worry, it's okay. Just throwing it out there. It's like, how about we just relinquish some of that holding back and just say, you know, dammit, I need a break. Will you come over and be with my kids? Or please meet me at four o'clock for the playground in the park? Because I am exhausted whenever we're so afraid to be in need. Yeah, we're so in need.

Absolutely. And that's true. Yes, with children. And I know that's what we're talking about. But that's true in general, not asking for help. And I am the original, not asking for help person and it has taken me honestly, honestly, until the past seven years, I'd have to say, to truly recognize that I need help in every arena, whether it's physical, which obviously has diminished so to speak over the years emotional, spiritual, I we all need help and we need each other. Yeah,

it's true community that you've built for yourself and you have a wider one that extends far beyond who I am. But what are you saying about um, you know, telling women that it goes fast. What do you want them to do with that information? If not, you don't want them to feel guilty. You don't want them to be stressed when they hear it. That is that is what how they hear it. What do you want, but you with the perspective of the years you have what do you mean by that? What can she do with that reminder that will make her feel supported. And

in the understood happiest day that you're having with your child or your life, let's just say that or we are focusing on them as new mothers that you're having in this arena of your life. Pick a gym from the day, there has to be every day that has that moment where it all comes together. When you recognize this is exactly where I'm supposed to be with whom I'm supposed to be this child, me. And there has to be in every day, either at least one if not more. So I would say grab those moments. And you know, there's that practice, I don't do it. But I recognize it is beautiful that you know, the end of the day to yourself, and to your some people do it with their children to pick out your best part of your day. What was your highlight of the day? What was it, I think that we have more of those gems in the day than we recognize. And they get very overshadowed by how hard it all is. And it is

so because somehow we're led to believe that it is just supposed to be this blissful, glorious, constantly uplifting, amazing and love, infatuated experience. And social media, of course, hasn't helped that at all. Because well, some people put their vulnerabilities out there on social media, but you still see a lot of the you know, the perfection, of being the perfect mother and having the perfect mother child experience. But like, it is up, it is down it is in between down for days, you don't have to you can go days without enjoying a single moment. And that is normal. Yeah. But like you said, you have to, you have to switch your mindset to try to focus on because there was some, I'm sure some beauty in some of those moments, just putting your child to sleep at night is, you know, beautiful once their eyes are closed. It isn't it is okay for it to be hard at times. And as you said earlier in the conversation, you have a lot of moments where you just have to pull up your bootstraps and be like, this is just what I got to do today. And I don't have to love every second.

Now I have several things I have to do today, I'm not looking forward to.

That's, that's fair, that makes sense. Um, there's something else that you're doing mainly as a living example that I want women to understand as well. Because while it's not always fun and easy, taking care of a young child, you really get almost no time to yourself, even to think because they'll talk once they start talking. They talk all the time, and they interrupt your very thoughts. And having your thoughts interrupted a lot. It's also very, it's very, it's the opposite of meditation. It's the exact opposite of meditation, so it's stressful. But I also know that women get very emotional like you began this by saying, Oh, my goodness, my new grandson is already nine months old. How did that happen? And women get very emotional at the first birthday, I met, basically all subsequent birthdays, and they get very emotional packing away the little beautiful baby clothes that their child no longer fits in. And they're kind of clinging and afraid the child will grow up to and I always tell them, You're, you're forget you're not aware that as they grow, you get to keep loving them. You're not going to just you what good joy you have is that this immense love you have for them. And yes, they're absolutely precious when they're little, you know, there's just like there's an indescribable preciousness to young children. But you don't see it when you only have young children, you get to keep loving them and you love them more, because you know them better. And here you are with your children in their 30s and 40 years old and you're still enjoying their company, you're enjoying their presence in your life, you're probably enjoying the space you have between you that you didn't have when they were babies. And I wish women weren't too afraid of them growing up as well, because this is a lifelong relationship that you get to enjoy, for sure. And it gets richer and richer and richer. And yet, I also think there's something that I've noticed or I've noticed it for a while, but is that it has stretched me as a person to have to or choose to, I should say meet each of my children from the time they were born in their births literally. And from the time they were born to now individually, they're incredibly different. All three of them, they couldn't be more different. And I have chosen to want that rich relationship with them. So I have had to stretch myself to meet each of them where they are. I'm And that has made me I think, a more full person and has certainly enhanced our relationships, I cannot approach any situation with them in the same way, literally. And people. People think that you've kind of gotten it down at this point. And I say, but really, I never had a 40 year old before. So I just like I never had a four month old at the time, I never had a four month old, I never had a 40 year old and I have to meet him very differently than his 33 year old brother. So my point is, you have to keep growing as a person in order to keep that relationship as treasured and important as it is to you.

And we have to, we have to constantly check ourselves as parents that were that were not disappointed that a child isn't behaving in the way that is most relatable to us, or having your child not be different from you or different from their sibling. And recognizing that as an important space for you to grow as a parent really helps you in those challenging moments that you have. You can see it in that from that perspective. Yeah, well, Lee, we know you have a yoga class to get to on this beautiful morning in Hawaii. Thank you so much for coming on and talking with us and for lending all of your wisdom about loving your children as they grow through the decades. And also

sorry to interrupt but also a perfect example of how LEA is continuing to keep her community meetings in place. You know, you keep setting up these things in your life where you can go to to have a community a space where you feel welcomed, they've laid out your map for you. Like, that feels good.

While you have a fulfilled life outside of your children, which I think is another thing you're very good example of, but I think all of your advice was very wise. And I definitely agree and understand with the comment about how you never had a 40 year old before. I remember saying that to my son when he went had middle middle school. I said, Alex, you have to bear with me here. I've never had a middle schooler before. It's just constantly changing. But that is what's beautiful about it. We didn't have children because it was the easy path through life. We have children because it's just such a deeply rewarding beautiful, fulfilling and loving experience. And it's just rife with endless change and growth. And I think that's I think that's the most beautiful part of it. And I think you're a great example of of why that is. So you're deeply inspiring to us. And thank you so much for all the love and support you've thought thrown our way through the years and we dream of visiting you one day and taking you up on your offer and visiting you in Hawaii.

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