#299 | Vaginal Birth After Unnecessary LEEP Procedure

In her early 20s, Kelsey of Soul Shine Birth went to her OBGYN for a routine Pap smear. Her results came back with HPV and abnormal cells. Having been led to believe she had impending cervical cancer, she did exactly what her OB advised: Get a LEEP (Loop Electrosurgical Excision Procedure) as soon as possible to remove any potentially harmful cells. For the next 6-9 months sex was painful and she regularly bled with intercourse.  

As it turned out, her abnormal cells were not cancerous and her HPV (human papillomavirus) spontaneously resolved, as it typically does in young women. Statistics show that 90% of HPV cases spontaneously resolve without intervention within two years. 

Today, Kelsey shares the story of her exhaustingly long labor, the remedies her midwife recommended to help cervical scar tissue dissolve, and how her mental preparations and birth altar supported her in achieving a vaginal birth despite 10 hours at nearly full dilation.  

This episode sheds light on the unnecessary and seemingly harmless interventions that young women are offered with their routine Pap smear that can have lasting and detrimental effects on the birth experience.

Watch the full video of today's episode on YouTube

If you enjoyed this episode, you can learn more by listening to episode #251 with Nathan Riley, MD.

#251 | HPV and Your Abnormal Pap May Not Be What You Think: Cervical Cancer Prevention with Nathan Riley

Soul Shine Birth on Instagram

Soul Shine Birth Website

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Transcript

Just to be clear, the OB told you you had a pre cancerous lesion on your cervix, and said nothing of the fact that HPV spontaneously clears up at a very high rate, especially in young women. Was there any mention about no mention of that. And quite frankly, the conversation was like this, this can and will turn to cancer. You know, we've been keeping an eye on it, and things are going, like the the wrong direction. And again, I had no knowledge of like, like, what that would even look like, like, how high was my risk, or anything I just heard pre cancer, and was, of course, out of fear, just backed into this corner of like, let's do the LEAP procedure, and I just went ahead with it without even knowing other options.

I'm Cynthia Overgard, owner of HypnoBirthing of Connecticut, childbirth advocate and postpartum support specialist. And I'm Trisha Ludwig, certified nurse midwife and international board certified lactation consultant. And this is the Down To Birth Podcast. Childbirth is something we're made to do. But how do we have our safest and most satisfying experience in today's medical culture? Let's dispel the myths and get down to birth.

Hi, I'm Kelsey Scott. I am a mama of a rainbow baby who is now eight months old. I am a birth and postpartum doula, childbirth educator and doula mentor. My Doula partner is Aurora Sullivan, and we have a business called Soul shine birth here in Southern California. So it's been a very beautiful and unique experience to merge the two motherhood and being able to support mothers over the last for me four years as a doula, and I'm excited to be here today with both of you. Thank you for having me as we talk about my birth story of my soy. And I know that part of your story involved that you've had a leap procedure. So a lot of our listeners haven't heard about that, and I, myself know very little about that. Can you please explain what what that is, what precipitated it, and you know what impact it can have on birth?

Sure, happy to so I would currently call myself a like holistic hippie mama as many maybe moms identify as it is a journey to get to that place. And 10 years ago, I was not where I was now, in my knowledge and even like in my wellness journey, I would say so. Just rewinding 10 years a typical pap smear I had, like abnormal cells coming up that they identified as HPV, I know very common amongst the population of women, and at the time I was young, I was in my early 20s, and this was really scary for me. I had a male OB, and just not someone that I would trust, in the sense of, like, consulting with, like, my options, or anything like that. So I felt a lot of fear when these results came back. And really, long story short, the advice being, hey, we'll keep an eye on this for several months. Reoccurring pap smears. Hopefully the cells, abnormal cells, clear up. And if not, you know, we'll have to talk about next steps. And over the course of, I think, a year, the abnormal cells didn't clear up in the way they wanted. And so they did a biopsy of my cervix, and it showed some irregular, regular cells, again, something that they were looking to take action on. And so I basically got a voicemail. I like, still remember, like, my heart dropping, I got a voicemail saying, Hey, you have pre cancer, you know, like the C WORDS dropped, and you're like, Whoa. And I, again, I was early 20s, and I was really, really scared. So essentially, in that voicemail, the OB had said, Let's do a leak procedure. And I went forward with it. And that really is, for those that don't know what a leak procedure is. You're removing the abnormal cells at the at the same time, if they're cutting away, it cauterizes. So it's an outpatient procedure. It's pretty straightforward and simple, but at the time, they really didn't even disclose risks of like, what that could look like, how it could impact pregnancies, and knowing what I know now about HPV and how that can be cared for in a more natural way, and letting the body, you know, clear up those abnormal cells. I had no idea that that was even option so so just to be just to be sure, just to be clear, the OB told you you had a pre cancerous lesion on your cervix and said nothing of the matter of. Of the fact that HPV spontaneously clears up at a very high rate, especially in young women. Was there any mention about, no mention of that. And quite frankly, the conversation was like this. This can and will turn to cancer. You know, we've been keeping an eye on it, and things are going, like, the wrong direction. And again, I had no knowledge of like, like, what that would even look like, like, how high was my risk, or anything I just heard pre cancer, and was, of course, out of fear, just backed into this corner of like, let's do the LEAP procedure, and I just went ahead with it without even knowing other options. Trisha, can you talk about leap procedures and just tell us what you know?

Or an invasive procedure in the cervix to remove the cells so they're cutting into the cervix and that leaves scar tissue.

They cauterize what they cut? Yeah, it cuts and cauterizes at the same time, at least a device that they used on my cervix. Yeah.

I mean, I've never had one. I've never seen one done. I only know of women having them done, and then I do know of the women who have had them done that sometimes they run into problems in birth as a result of it, because of that scar tissue. And I know that they are way overdone. I do think the tides are turning on that a little bit, people are becoming a lot more educated in the guidelines the United States Preventative Services, Task Force, guidelines on pap smears and the follow up procedures and the whole there's a whole grading system, and they're constantly changing the recommendations, but They are changing the recommendations in favor of doing less, less invasive procedures, and you know, realizing that HPV does often take care of itself.

Chelsea, can you explain the manner in which these procedures and the resulting scar tissue can impede birth, or the kinds of problems it can lead to in birth and why? What's the connection between that scar tissue and a complicated birth?

Yeah, well, speaking from my experience as a doula and working closely with my midwife, I've had clients who have had previously either a procedure or even multiple procedures, and it's not always brought up to the birthing mother. From the standpoint of the provider who's caring for the pregnant woman in midwifery care, I definitely see it talked about a little more and mothers given more insight, of like, hey, this, this could be impactful. And what that impact is, is the cervix can have a harder time softening and dilating if we think about scar tissue, right? You know, a lot of us are familiar with, maybe, like a past surgery of any sorts, and there's built up scar tissue that cartilage. It's really tough. It's really like gritty. Maybe it's a good word to describe it. And we want the cervix to be able to be smooth and soft and to dilate, allowing space for baby to make the descent.

It's very fibrous tissue, so it's not stretchy, and it doesn't relax as easily. And then it may be one of the reasons that women sometimes get stuck at a certain amount of dilation, and it's hard to break through that place. I have a question that might be a little a little unrelated, but I can't help but wonder, How come when women have these abnormal HPV cells, it's only affecting the cervix, and it doesn't seem to ever be a consideration of the uterus at large. Why is it always just a matter of the cervix? Does anyone know?

I think that's where it live typically, where that where it lit Yeah. Okay, interesting. That's where, that's where the cells are removed. Is, is typically

in the in the cervix. Okay, so what happened you went for this procedure, and how did it go for you?

Um, you know, it was quite simple, and that was outpatient, but, and I know I have a high pain tolerance, so I didn't identify it as painful. But you know you can smell the skin burning. It's like quite uncomfortable in that you go home and you're bleeding. For me, I had bleeding for months, especially with sexual intercourse. I want to say, like that, bleeding didn't really clear up, maybe six to nine months, not like heavy bleeding, but definitely something that was there. I remember it being uncomfortable during sex too, just like it's a wound that's healing so and you can feel that after that. Actually, this is ironic not to my not to like my credit, but the results came back from what they took from the leap. And the OB GYN calls and says, everything's normal. There actually, there actually was nothing that you know, that we saw as abnormal.

Wait a second, as if the whole thing were a mess. Sorry, yes. How could that have happened? You?

It could have spontaneously resolved already, or you had a false positive HPV, yes, yes. What happened for you when you heard mixed emotion station, yeah, well, and I was just trying to do what was right with the information I had at hand, trying to make the best informed decision for my body, which was very limited information. And I just felt like so devastated, because at that point, you know, I'm like on Google, 24/7 leap procedures and impact of leap. And of course, I saw them like it can impact your chance of even getting pregnant and conceiving and then having challenges in childbirth. So at the time, being a young, 20 year old, it was very upsetting. You know, I'm now in my 30s, and I've worked through a lot of that, but at the time, it was really, really upsetting. Meanwhile, the OB is just like cheering that you don't have HPV, and he's just kind of trying to get you to be like, Oh, congrats. This is such good news and not not caring at all that you had a completely unnecessary and harmful procedure. Yes, and then right after that happened, then again, out of fear, they talked me into getting the HPV vaccine that would prevent against, you know, certain strain. So that's another topic I could just like be so upset over, but it was just everything was based on a fear for me making those decisions. We did a really good episode on this entire topic, from healing naturally to the vaccine, with Dr Nathan Riley. So we have to make sure we include that in the show notes, because this is related to HPV. But does anyone ever get a lead procedure when it's not HPV related? Is it always an HPV situation?

Well, that's the most concerning risk of abnormal cells, abnormal cells and cervical cancer. That's the one, the one thing that is associated with it. So there are, probably are other reasons that you might but certainly this is the most common, and I will say I was very optimistic. I'd seen a lot of births with women who have had previous leak procedures or scar tissue for any reason, maybe from like past traumas to the cervix. Birth beautifully and not have it have an impact. Now, when I did start thinking about it, was actually my midwife sparked the conversation. She actually had just attended a birth, and this, this birthing mother had scar tissue and she would not dilate past, past one centimeter, she was not opening up. And there was even a point in her labor where the birthing team was, like, fairly certain she could have been during transition, like, that's how much her body was working so hard to help her cervix open. And sure enough, like it just was not opening. And at that point, my who is my midwife and who is her midwife identified? There was scar tissue there that had not been talked about prenatally or identified prenatally. And so that's when my midwife brought my attention. I was around 3536 weeks in pregnancy, and she just said, Hey, you know, let's talk about this. She got the consent from the other birthing mother to share her story with me. And she said, I see in your chart notes you had a leap procedure. Do you want to dive into this? Do you want to talk about it? It was a really just like open conversation. There was no pressure of any sorts. And she was saying that she had been doing her own research on how can we resolve cervical scar tissue prenatally, and how can we hopefully avoid getting stuck at any point in dilation during birth? And so her and I talked about it, and she said, Hey, I've never done this. I've actually never massaged a cervic. But are you open to it? And she's a good friend of mine as well as my midwife, because of my experience as a doula, and we have a very trusting, open relationship, which was really a beautiful thing to have. And I said, let's try it, sure. And so before we went into doing that, I had been doing evening primrose oil suppositories. Just got those over the counter. I didn't do any orally, from my research, suppositories are much more effective. I would just like prick the capsule before I inserted it at night, slept with it in. I did that. And I also even did castor oil tampons as a way of softening too. So I had been doing my own research along with my midwife, and these were things that we were just exploring and open to. And So previous to her doing the cervical exam and and softening my cervix. I had been kind of doing that, that prep work,
but this is increasingly common that women are doing this and becoming aware of it and utilizing it, and so it's very interesting to hear about your experience with it. So keep going. I just, I just wanted to mention that because we did talk about this one.

Comments. So I was just really open minded. And I had that mindset throughout my pregnancy and my birthing journey of keeping an open mind and really just and why I mean open mind is a lot of what I work with educating clients on is you can decline cervical exams when your OB GYN offers it at 3738 3940 weeks, etc. And so for me, I was in this category of like, I'm not going to get cervical exams prenatally. Why would I do that? I I know that. It's just, you know where I'm at in that moment. And so I even had to shift gears and be open minded and just have this sense of like, okay, this is a tool, and let's try it. And thankfully for me, the cervical exam and the therapy, cervical therapy were not painful, and every woman's threshold of sensation is different. For me, it just felt like pressure is how I would best identify it. So she easily did the cervical exam. Basically, it's inserting her fingers into my vagina to touch my cervix. And she could immediately feel the scar tissue, and she said, Okay, here it is. So let me just do some therapy on it for I think we did like 90 seconds the first time, maybe a little bit longer. And really that was just like working that scar tissue, just like you would scar tissue anywhere else in the body. A lot of times, like wash of tools you see, or things like that, to break up scar tissue. She was just using her her fingers with a glove and working on it again. I didn't identify this as painful. I know for some women, this could be more intense. Just had an interesting thought, What about like a vibrator that reaches the cervix? I wonder if that would be helpful. I think it would, because she even told me, Hey, you can go home and do this yourself, like, if this is cool. I mean, that's hard to get your own fingers up in there. That's it can be for some people, the cervix is pretty far away, and then to even just try to move them around. Is difficult, but a tool could be very helpful.

I could see that as being really helpful, just because I there was no idea I was getting my hand up there myself. So we ended up doing that one more additional time. Prenatally, we didn't do it. I had my weekly visits at that point. We didn't do it every week. It was more just like, hey, like, let's just see where things are at and actually, but the last cervical exam I had, she said, I don't feel any I don't feel any scar tissue, which was just like a beautiful thing. It was music to my ears, because I knew how much of an impact that could potentially have on my birth and and my plan was a home birth. So of course, you know, I wanted to be able to dilate beautifully and naturally without any assistance.

So how, how many weeks were you using the vaginal evening primrose and Castor Oil tampons for I did evening primrose oil every night from 37 to 41 I did the cast oil tampons. If I didn't do it, evening promos, I would do the cast oil tampon. I think I did that maybe like six or seven times in that in those that span of weeks, it would cause cramping for me. So I knew it was like doing stuff, and it was a little more uncomfortable. Evening promos, I felt nothing with and with so that was just my experience, utilizing the both of them.

That's a that's a great idea, castor oil tampons. Maybe even that would work for, you know, initiating labor sometimes when we need to, although castor oil. My recommendation typically with castor oil, if anyone is going to use it, first of all, you don't need to use it. But if you are going to use it, it usually works best when the water is already released, and then you wouldn't want to use a tampon. So maybe that's not the best idea.

So Trisha, you're saying that when the membranes have released, you would recommend castor oil. I've only heard of it gastrointestinally, like orally, yeah,

yes, no, I'm I am. No, I'm not saying that, because we know that women will naturally, spontaneously go into labor, over 95% of them, within 48 hours. But if someone is going to use castor oil, which sometimes women decide to do, it's more effective if the water is already broken, and then you're taking it orally, yes, so I'm just saying you can't use the tampon in that case.

But does Did you ever hear of anyone using a tampon or castor oil directly on a cervix before talking to Kelsey? Because I never have not on a tampon. No, I never heard of it directly on contact with the cervix. Did you? I mean, if not, yeah, no, I don't think so. No. So no, so that's interesting. Kelsey, where do you get that idea from? Where do you hear about that?

My midwife, she, um, she sent me an article. She's like, Hey, I've never done this either or never recommended it before, but I found this article directly related to cervical scar tissue, and I'll find it for you both, and I'll send it to you, um, and, and I said. You know, I'm familiar with castor oil for many different uses, initiating labor and and again, it's, it's the last resort that I always recommend for clients like 41 plus six. Like, that's the one we're using Castro oil. But again, I had to just be open minded. It was a different use case. Like, you know, a lot of women use castor oil on their abdomen, and there's different use cases for castor oil. And again, that wasn't pregnancy related, but I didn't have scar tissue, and so I did go into spontaneous labor at 41 weeks on the dot, after like, a full day of walking without my belly band on, I knew that that was like things were happening, so I went to like, a five mile walk, and my bowels were naturally clear it out. So that was my first sign of labor. Naturally went into labor, and I would say, like that day, when things were happening, I knew it was going to be, whether it was like that, that afternoon or that night, or enough, my surges started as soon as I laid down for bed that evening, after my long walk, I took a nice bath. I actually had another midwife, friend, not my current midwife, who lives in the neighborhood, come over and she did a beautiful massage on me, and within like 10 minutes of her leaving, I was like, Oh yeah, I think I think I'm going into labor. I've been having contractions like prodromal labor nightly for almost a month like cramping, and so every night, I would be like, is this it or not? And these felt a little different. They actually started at five minutes apart, at like, 830 at night. And so my mental note to self was, okay, I need to try to rest, because I actually walked a lot today, and now we're going into the night, and my contraction had begun. They began at five minutes apart, and that's how they stayed for my entire 35 hour labor. They got closer together to like, three minutes apart, you know, as things intensified, but I never got more of a break than five minutes apart, which was really difficult for me. I was doula myself, saying, Okay, it's time to rest. Okay, it's time to rest. And I was doing all the things to try to get them to space apart, which is, you know, eat a nice, nourishing meal. I got in the shower, I was stretching. I was doing some puppy pose, and just trying to see if things would would let up and space out just to get some rest. And it didn't. It continued at that and so my early labor was, in total, I want to say something like 18 hours of it being what felt like more active surge pattern, but it was still, I never identified that as painful contractions in their five minutes apart. It still was manageable in that between surges, I was smiling, laughing, even during surges at points, you know it was, it was manageable, but it was a very long early labor, five minute Park contractions, using my tools, a lot of just staying rested as much as possible. And my midwife actually joined me. So 8pm I went in the labor. My midwife joined me the next day, in the early afternoon, it was the one day that she could not be at my birth. Potentially, she had a funeral to attend. And so that was the thought going through my mind of, okay, I'm okay with it being a longer labor, because I want my midwife to be here. This can't be happening. I need her here, like she's, she's the person I need. And of course, my Doula, partner and my husband were there. I had a wonderful support team. But my my labor was long enough where she was able to come straight from the funeral and came to my house, and I have, like, so much gratitude for her being able to, like, full circle, go from to life and be able to hold space for me. It was a really wonderful thing. And when she came over, I did actually opt for a cervical exam in labor at like, one 2pm in the afternoon at this point, gosh, I'd be in labor, like 18 hours or something. And I had convinced myself I wasn't in labor because so much was happening in that I felt surges, but I never identified it as painful. And so I was like, maybe this is just for drama labor, like I just convinced myself. And sure enough, she did a circle exam. I was fully faced. I was four centimeters dilated, and baby was low, and my husband, my Doula, partner, and I, like, did a huge celebration, because I had convinced myself I was at a zero and not not, you know, even like nearing, anywhere near having my baby. And so this is when we shifted gears from a more restful state of labor to Okay, let's let's pick things up. Let's get things going. Let's have this baby. So that's when I started walking curb, walking the mile circuit, really, just to get baby in the right position. Question. And I know I had a feeling baby was maybe like a sync clinic, because of how my surge pattern started again, I was dueling myself, and I was trying to surrender that doula brain. But this is when my my brain was able to say, Okay, we're doing this. We're having this baby. Let me ask you a quick question. Do you have any theory on why your labor was taking so long?

I think it was his position. I've never seen a cone head as big as his, and I've seen a lot of cone heads. His cone head was, like, huge. I think he was asynclitic. I don't think he was op I never had back labor. So again, I was like, texting in early, early labor, I was texting my Doula partner. I'm like, Okay, I have a five, like five minute search pattern. They're lasting about 45 seconds, but the intensity is not that bad. I don't feel anything in my back like it was just all of these thoughts going through my head, and I had to try to surrender to what was but I do think it was his, his position.

So let me just make sure the listener knows that OP is for a posterior baby, and that would mean the baby would come out facing upward, rather than seeing the back of their head on the way out. If the mother is looking down at the baby and you don't believe that your baby was so but it definitely had something to do with position, it seems, which makes sense, especially given the shape of the head. But that was a really long labor, and it sounded like everything was going really well, which is the interesting part, but it was just really long and slow. How long was the pushing stage?

Active? Pushing three hours. My body was bearing down, probably for an hour before that.

Oh yeah, points to a position async clinic head or something. If the baby's head was extremely molded, then that just Yes, that definitely indicates that the baby's head had to adapt to the pelvic shape, whether that was because of the head position or just the shape of the pelvis that you know, that's what the body does. That's the beauty of giving a mother the time and space to move around and let her baby navigate that pelvis and let the baby's head take the shape that it needs to to fit through. If you potentially had had an epidural and been in bed on your back, that probably wouldn't have happened, I couldn't agree more, I was very much in tune with my body and moving in the ways that I felt I needed to, which was a lot of lunging and I did a lot of inversion in labor really, just like listening to what my body needed again, once I gave that myself permission to say, Okay, you're in labor. And you know, it's time to kind of work with my body, versus trying to be in that more restful state. And when I was resting, I was on my birth ball and on my yoga mat and and doing movement in a more gentle way. But I did have a feeling that I needed to do a little bit more to help my baby to not whether it was, you know, his position, or the shape of my body, and helping him make that that journey and navigate many women in that scenario would have been recommended a hospital induction and been given Pitocin. And then, can you imagine what your baby would have to endure with that type of head molding required to have a vaginal birth? If Pitocin contractions were, you know, cramming the baby's head down into the pelvis. It's just, it's just a great example of why we have to let nature do its physiologic process the way it needs to do it. Because if we intervene and overstimulate, your baby, likely would have had fetal distress. And you know what happens from there? Yeah, yeah. I can't even imagine and, and there was meconium, which I think we identified, like, gosh, a few hours before he was born again in the hospital. Scenario, we talked about this after my birth being like, because I did ask to transfer at hour 28 going into the second night. So I really didn't sleep at all. I was restful, but I didn't sleep. And so we're going to the second night. At this point, it's not pain. I never want to identify my birth as painful. It was the exhaustion. And I see that with moms, especially first time moms, really home. Birth the biggest cause for transfer and in first time moms is exhaustion. Labors are longer, and so I was doing my best to keep my energy, taking breaks for, you know, snacks when I could, and having sugar that I needed, and and trying to be in wrestle positions. But at the end of the day, going into a second night of labor is is exhausting. And so I was ready to tap out, and I had asked to transfer, and my midwife said, Hey, let me check you again. Let's, you know, let's see where you're at. And this, again, a cervical exam can be a tool, and I see this with with moms who are using as a tool to reframe where they're at. And so sure enough, when she checked me again, I want to say I was around a nine. And. She's like, you're gonna do this, you're having your baby at home. And after that, I still had another 10 hours of labor.

Oh, my God, I cannot believe long this labor was okay. It was actually really interesting information, because that last 10 hours was what was required for your baby's head, because I was when you said three hours of pushing, I thought with the baby's head that molded that. That might have been kind of quick, but that last 10 hours was really what allowed your baby and your body to do that, and it was pure surrender. I would say my best tool was presence. I couldn't think about the finish line because I wasn't even I wasn't near pushing yet. And I had to mentally surrender to the fact that I'm going to have this baby. And by the way, I did manifest. I've always visualized a sunrise baby. So I kept telling myself, you asked for this, Kelsey, you asked that sunrise baby. And it's only 8pm and so I had to keep just taking it one step at a time. I had a birth altar, which was, I kept it up for probably two months after my birth, because that was my focal point. And I'd seen so many moms do this and birth their babies at home, first time moms, and so it was me visualizing their birth actually, that got me through like, every step of the way. Yeah, and I was very internal. I didn't really want to be touched, I didn't want to be talked to, and I knew that I was a marathon runner, and I used those tools of like I'm going inward, I'm doing my thing. I'm doing it. I don't need anyone's help. I need their loving support, for safety, to feel like I could do this. But I just went inward, and I stared at that birth altar one wave at a time, and had to just remind myself, like, you know, this is where I'm meant to be in one at a time, and this is, this is the hard stuff that prepares you, you know, for motherhood and beyond, is going through that journey of of just having to surrender and let it be. What is a birth altar and what did yours look like?

The birth altar could really be anything you want it to be mine. I like could get emotional because it was so beautiful, so much intention put into it. I had a blessing way which can be in lieu of a baby shower, where women surround the birthing or the pregnant woman who's preparing for birth and really just bless her and it's infused love and safety is important to her. And one of the things that my friends and loved ones did was made affirmations for me, and so across my birth altar, it was my fireplace, in my in my bedroom, actually was where I set up the birth altar, and the affirmations hung there. And there were a few that I fixate on. I just read them over and over and over. I had candles. My birth setting was very dark, dimly lit. And I was in that little birth cave for probably 12 hours of my labor. You know, I really had to go inward. And there were pictures that were important to me. There were actually two different posters that my husband and I had water color in the weeks leading up to birth of just like things that reminded me of of safety and feeling loved. And so I stared at that and had my music, playing my birth playlist, and that that was really what channels my my ability to surrender. Because, as you both know, birth is, I would say 95% mental. Yes, the physical is, is hard and challenging, but it really is the mentality. Yeah, the physical just takes care of itself. It's the mental that gets in, that gets in the way that's that's the part that we have to relinquish to do you have any pictures of your birth altar that we might be able to share when the episode goes out, it goes live? Is it something you really share? Okay, I would love to share that.

So what part of your story have we not heard yet or that you wanted to share?

To me, there was a lot of spirituality in my birth journey. I would identify myself as a spiritual person. I was raised religious as a Lutheran, but I would just identify as spiritual. And the reason I really identify as spiritual is because of the birth I've witnessed. It is a spiritual experience. It's out of body. And I always tell the women I support, you don't have to identify as religious or even even identify as spiritual, but you have to be able to go out of your body and and connect with the universe, the star, something like brand and bigger than us, because birth is so primal, it is bigger than us. And so for me, my journey was really spiritual. My due date, February 8, was actually the day we gained our angel baby. Nick I was gonna get emotional. It was the day we gained our angel baby the previous year, and we had lost our first pregnancy at 12 weeks.

Kelsey is incredible that now that you've had a beautiful, healthy baby, you still can cry about the one you lost. And I want women to know that, because so often when they're grieving, they think the one way to heal is just to have that one healthy baby. But there's no replacing it,

no her name's Cora, and she's always with us. And there were some really divine moments, um, that I knew she was with us the first being that our estimated due date. And as I you know, I know due dates are really just a number, but it felt so impactful that my estimated due date was the same day we gained her as our angel the previous year, and I continue to see signs throughout pregnancy. I would see hummingbirds for the thing that reminded me of her presence. And so during my birth, it just felt so spiritual. Actually, when I was pushing, my midwife sat in front of me, she, she would laugh now, um, she actually sat on the birth altar and she, she was laughing to herself, like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I sat on your birth altar. But it was okay. She was part of my my focal point, my experience. But she held a flashlight, and it somehow projected a rainbow right across my belly. And I stared at that rainbow, and it was, and I have pictures of that too. It was probably the most incredible thing I've seen. Just reminded me that, you know, again, there's so much beyond us that's part of birth. It's like other worldly and being able to tap into that, that like primal power and peace, and that's, that's what got me through that last like, 10 hours, was, was that, for that primal wisdom in there's a book transformed by birth, Britta Bucha, and she talks about, you're like, going through this journey, and you actually have to, like, it's like a Queen going, like on the quest for jewels or something like that, and she has to lose her crown and her robe and all these beautiful things and and that in birth, in the same way as we have all these tools, and we're trying to get to this end point, and we don't know what tools we're going to be able to use, or how they're going to work for us. And I always visualize birthing my baby in the tub, and I did, but I ended up hating the tub. It was too hot for me. I was so nauseous. I was throwing up every push it was. It was actually like I hated the tub, but I sat there, you know, and surrendered and stared at the rainbow my belly in the birth altar, and had cool rags on my on my neck. And I was like, This is what she talked about. This is what she talked about, these lessons of, you know, birth is not something we can control or predict or have this, like, like, deep grip on of, like, it has to be this one way. And so I really just had to let it all go and say, Okay, I'm not enjoying the tub. It's okay. You know, if I want to get out, I can get out, but that that was something that was really impactful and powerful for me. Of like, these are the lessons. And I go back to these lessons, often in motherhood, right? Of like, relinquishing control, loosen

the grip, loosen the grip. That is, that is the lesson in life, in birth and mothering,

in parenting, the more we try to control, the harder things are, the more resistance we're up against. It's surrender and trust loosen the ground.

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For me, my journey was really spiritual. My due date, February 8, was actually the day we gained our angel baby. Didn't think I was gonna get emotional. It was the day we gained our angel baby the previous year, and we had lost our first pregnancy at 12 weeks. Okay, I just need to take it. And her name's Cora, and she's always with us. And there were some really divine moments that I knew she was with us, the first being that our estimated due date. And as I you know, I know due dates are really just a number, but it felt so impactful that my estimated due date was the same day we gained her as our angel the three. Be a year during my birth, it just felt so spiritual. Actually, when I was pushing, my midwife sat in front of me, she held a flashlight, and it somehow projected a rainbow right across my belly. And I stared at that rainbow, and it was probably the most incredible thing I've seen in.