#309 | March Q&A: Uterine Rupture Risk; Weaning without Guilt; Home Birth Laws; Timeframes for Placental Birth; Precipitous Birth; Botox and Nursing

Cynthia and Trisha are back with the March Q&A episode! This one kicks off with a fun discussion on things that our Instagram followers think people should know but don’t—like how, when you say you’re eating a kiwi, you’re actually referring to either a kiwi bird or, worse, a person from New Zealand!

In today’s Q&A episode, we answer these questions:

1. Do I need to schedule a cesarean at 40 weeks if I’m planning a VBAC? My OB says I do.
2. How do I know when it’s time to wean from breastfeeding, and how can I do it without feeling guilty?
3. What are my options if my state says it’s illegal to give birth at home after a previous cesarean?

In the extended, ad-free version, available on Patreon and Apple subscriptions, we cover:

• My second birth was only 45 minutes long, and my baby was born in the car on the way to the hospital. How can I prevent or better prepare for a rapid birth with my third baby?
• Will dropping a pumping session with my eleven-week-old baby affect my milk supply?
• How long is too long to wait to deliver the placenta, and how can I help it come out more quickly?

Finally, in the "quickies" segment, we touch on a variety of topics, including alternatives to Pitocin, botox while breastfeeding, swimming in public pools during the third trimester, finances & family planning, and dealing with the awkward situation of being told your baby can't attend a baby shower—and much more!

Remember you can watch all our episodes now in full video format on the Down to Birth YouTube channel! 

Thank you, as always, for your fantastic questions! Keep them coming to our hotline at 802-438-3696. We promise we won’t answer! :)

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Transcript

I'm Cynthia Overgard, owner of HypnoBirthing of Connecticut, childbirth advocate and postpartum support specialist. And I'm Trisha Ludwig, certified nurse midwife and international board certified lactation consultant. And this is the Down To Birth Podcast. Childbirth is something we're made to do. But how do we have our safest and most satisfying experience in today's medical culture? Let's dispel the myths and get down to birth.

Welcome! We asked a question on Instagram. We want to share the answers. All right, do you remember what it was? I sure do, and we got some great answers. It was a great question. Yeah, it was alright. The question was, what's something you wish everyone knew about? What's something you wish that everyone knew that they don't something like that, something like that.

And I we got hundreds, of course, so I'm going to scan some of them. A lot of them had to do with birth. And you know that their ideal way of giving birth, and they wish everyone so that's understandable in this community, but I want to share some of the more unique ones, especially the ones that went a little bit off topic. Okay, so Best Buy dates on food are usually for quality and not food safety.

Did you know that I pay no attention to Best Buy dates? Why does that not surprise me? My kids are always like trying to throw away food, and I'm like, it's only a month old. Stop it. It's fine. Taste it. It's fine.

I'm religious about throwing away things. Oh, I No. I don't even pay attention to the date. I look at the food and I smell the food, and sometimes I taste it. If I'm really being you're very brave with probably a very good immune system. As a result, I'm very particular about things like that. I did drink some bad chocolate milk the other night, though, that was still

-- ew. You did. Did you finish the glass? I bet you would like still do.

Hell no, I'm good. No, I would believe I immediately spit it out and rinse down my mouth. Don't smell milk before you drink it.

It's hard to tell with chocolate milk, I guess. So, I don't know. I guess it is, yeah, all right, um, Amazon Prime Day isn't the best deals day of the year. I knew it.

No, I bet it's Black Friday for Christmas. They're all there's so many deal days. I think it's just random. They're just testing things and trying things. The price has changed in your cart for this and that they're just trying stuff all year long. Okay? Swelling is common, not normal.

Interesting. Swelling are we talking about? I don't know.

So many things come to mind, some more normal than others, but more desirable than others, some more desirable. Okay, fine, that hospital policy is not law. Well, we feel like everyone knows that by now, but probably not, but most people don't think that. Most people do not realize that the truth about the effects of hormonal birth control, that's a great one. We did a whole episode on that with Abby Epstein. You don't need hormonal birth control to not get pregnant. Another good one, okay? Proper grammar. You'd think I wrote that one. You wish everyone knew proper grammar. This woman said proper grammar. Drives me nuts that people don't know this, okay, that people are supposed to pull into the far side of the Esplanade to make a U turn.

What I was like we can live on a beach. Where is she from?

I don't know. Pull into the far side of the esplanade. I just think that's so funny. Okay, good to know firelight only for a couple of hours before bedtime will change your life. Okay, we all want to learn more about this. I mean, obviously we know that too much blue light and screen light is not good before bed, but like, really, no light. We're talking about candles and fire light. I mean, I do insist on dimming all the lights in the house at night, like I cannot have a light in the house that doesn't have a dimmer, because I can't be in the room at night if the light is bright. So I guess that's trending in that direction. Yep. So I think it is literally candle light and fire light that's pretty intense, very romantic.

We have to get all the lights in this house. It's a month the bedroom, all these kitchen, dining room, everything, all right, you don't have to circumcise your male baby. Did you see my response to that on Instagram? That was a great response, only if he asks, only if he specifically asks, the harms of screen time for children under two, the research data is wild, and I wrote more like children under 40.

We should just do away with screens. What would life be like if we just did away with screens? I'm very nostalgic. I'm very nostalgic. Yeah, life was like in the 80s and 90s. Very nostalgic for it.

I'd like to keep my. Computer, but everything else can go.

We all want to keep our computers. Yeah, phones are the problem. Okay, to turn their lights on when their wipers are on. How bad fragrance is for your body. This one said the number one, pollutant fragrance, if there's one thing you eliminate from your life, fragrance, postpartum is Forever Love that one never have Truer words been spoken. Nuchal cords are not emergencies, not at all. And in fact, they might actually be protective.

This one just says, Jesus. Okay, sort of Mic drop. One really should be last. Okay, a big baby isn't a big deal. It's key. This one was so confusing, and I actually get Kiwi Yeah, yeah, it's kiwi fruit because she put emojis after every noun. It's kiwi fruit and Kiwi bird, not kiwi and Kiwi bird. Okay, see, this is kindly comma, an actual Kiwi person. Okay, she's saying we all have to stop calling kiwi fruit kiwi. I'm completely guilty of that. That's all I ever call it. It's Kiwi Well, to me, but it's not. It's kiwi fruit, which feels redundant. I just feel it feels silly. It's like, I agree saying strawberry fruit, orange banana fruit. But no, it's called kiwi fruit and Kiwi bird. And she's saying, Oh no, no, okay, see, it's it's still hard. It's cute. Proper is kiwi fruit, and kiwi is the bird kiwi. Kiwi is the what the people of New Zealand are called, that they refer to themselves as kiwis. So when you say that you're eating a kiwi, it's very offensive, because you're talking about eating a person of New Zealand, if they get truly offended by that, this is what, that's the biggest. What she's trying to tell us that's really the bigger. It's almost a Don't flatter yourself response. No one's trying to eat you. Okay, it's kiwi fruit, and the bird is called kiwi. It's not called kiwi. And then she put a picture of the fruit and Kiwi bird. So she says that we're saying Kiwi bird, but I never talk about kiwi. I didn't why I don't talk about Kiwi birds ever. No, she it's just kiwi. See how I just said kiwi. I meant, I mean, I'm talking about the bird, but they're just called kiwi. So you just fell right into the trap. You never talk about kiwi. Parentheses, the bird. No, it's supposed to be I'm still confused. Now you've confused me more. No, I know it's my I understand it's kiwi fruit, and then it's kiwi, then it's kiwi. When you're eaters, and don't say you're eating a kiwi, because then you're eating a person of New Zealand. Well, if you say you're eating. If you say you're eating a kiwi, it actually sounds like you're eating the bird. That's what bird that too.

Okay, we got all right, I think we clarified that Duncan was the toughest one. But you can imagine how frustrating it is to them to hear the entire world say it wrong all the time. That would that's almost akin to how the grammar person feels. Okay, let's just do a couple more. Oh, this one, yeah, there's always someone to switch the mood. This is and and, and wake us all up. This one says how much I'm struggling with motherhood, something she wishes everyone knew. Yep. Well. And finally, you can say no to anything.

Everyone needs to know that one, that one, will come in handy in life. All right, it's a complete sentence. Ready to jump in. Let's start. All right, let's go.

Hi. I have a question that's probably a quickie. It's regarding the backs and being pressured to schedule the Cesarean for 40 weeks, just in case, because the chances of uterine rupture and mom and baby dying. Thank you very much. Love you guys. That's ironic to try to avoid a uterine rupture and plan a C section instead to plan a uterine rupture and rupture to avoid a uterine rupture, a controlled uterine rupture, that's what we're talking about. Yeah, I think. And at 40 weeks, that's just really not that's basically telling her we intend on you having a C section. We're not giving you a chance to have a feedback. So she should say no, without a medical indication, she should say no. I was thinking today about how the risk of uterine rupture is only. Marginally higher for VBAC women over first time moms and no first time mom ever hears about it, worries about it, is coerced with dark ideas about it happening, and then V back moms, it's all they ever hear about. And it's a very, very, very low number for both categories of women. But I was thinking today, I'm still surprised after all these years, that many providers still induce women. Now in this case, the provider is talking about a scheduled T section, which has a host of its own risks, but so many still recommend induction with VBAC moms, which is step number one, the one thing not to do, and that drives up the risk of uterine rupture very significantly. And I was thinking today, I wonder if that were impossible, if no woman planning a VBAC were ever induced, if the risk of uterine rupture would even be higher, because it's already only a little bit higher, and maybe all of that is explained by those who are induced.

The vast majority of it is explained by interventions in labor, non physiologic birth. If you give a woman with a prior history of C section a an opportunity to have a physiologic birth, her risk of rupture, I'm sure is on par with women who have never had a rupture, or women who have never had a C section. Yeah, and I don't know if it's worth mentioning this, because I hate to upset anyone who's already had a scheduled C section. I'm always I hate to say anything that's upsetting, because we feel so guilty so easily. But scheduled C section sounds a lot more pleasant than an emergency C section, but from the baby's perspective, a scheduled C section is extremely different from a C section when that baby is already in labor, trying to come out, working, the body is ready. The signals have happened. And to just mention it so casually and to indicate that it's just, it just sounds better, let's schedule it, because otherwise it's an emergency.

You're basically, you're you're removing the element of the baby's physiology and role in birth, you're just cutting out the fact that that matters. No, the baby has a say in this. Baby is the main driver of it, and you're just literally cutting that out and bypassing it. There's consequences to that. So it should be taken seriously, and it should be discussed more. And women just don't know. They don't know that difference. They think they're doing the right thing by scheduling a C section so that they avoid an emergency, which makes sense logically, unless you know, Hi, I am wondering when you know it's the right time to wean nursing. My 20 month old is very milk obsessed, and I'm mentally touched out however. I am ready to lean but then I always have a guilty conscious, like it's natural, it's normal. She deserves this, but I can't do it anymore. So when do you know? Okay, what do you say? I think that this is always a difficult process. It's usually easier when it's baby led. You know if the if the the baby or the toddler just sort of chooses to wean. It feels easier. It feels less guilt on the mother. It's harder when it is initiated by the mother. But it's, it's a balance of, you know, trying to figure out how much the dependency on nursing is interfering with your sleep, your ability to return to your whatever it is you need to return to in life, to feel sort of like yourself again, how much it's how much of a toll it's taking on you, and how that's interfering with your enjoyment of motherhood.

Well, tell her how not to feel guilty about it. What would you say about that part? I know you're addressing it already rationally, but what do you say to the woman who feels guilty? Well, thank you. More to that, because that's the painful part where there's always something we're going to feel guilty about in parenting. We're going to feel guilty if we go back to work, we're going to feel guilty if we're weaning, we're going to feel guilty maybe if we're not working, we're going to feel guilty if we put our kids in daycare. There's always something that mothers are going to feel guilty about, so we just have to focus on what we have given to the child, and we have to focus on what is going to make us our best selves. Because when we can bring our best selves into motherhood, then we're giving our child the best possible thing. I mean, and we're not talking about weaning a six month old, she has breastfed her baby for 20 months. Yeah, I think that she's just as likely to feel guilty for looking back and hating the experience if she goes too long. Yes, she could, just as you know, five years we know. She could say, oh, I just I wish I enjoyed it more. And we always talk about listening to your intuition, because there really isn't a right and wrong answer with almost any of these things we ever discuss. And if you're really listening to your intuition, then when you start feeling an aversion to breastfeeding, and it's long past the time that is recommended even by staunch advocates of breastfeeding. Well, your intuition is telling you, if you're not liking it anymore, listen to it, maybe that's the perfect time to stop or to wean or to begin that process. It's almost like women need permission not to feel bad about these things. It's incredible, and it's always the most sensitive moms who are like bleeding themselves dry, doing everything they can for their babies who are hardest on themselves. And I almost envy the moms who don't feel guilt, and they just have more, a little more of a reckless abandon with their decisions, because they just suffer less, and their babies are just as fine. In almost any circumstance, they're just as fine. The women just don't suffer as much.

And I think the the way to find your way out of that guilt is just to remember that when you are taking the best care of yourself, even you are bringing your breast, your your breast, you are bringing your best self to your child, and that's the most important thing you can do as a mother. So if you're sitting there feeling guilty every if you're sitting there feeling bad and unhappy every time you're breastfeeding, then you're right. Those are the memories that you're going to reflect back on and say, I wish I can feel that way. The other thing is too that it isn't always a total weaning. Sometimes it's just partial weaning. Sometimes, if you know, if you're 20 month old, is nursing six times a day, you might feel a whole lot better if you set a few boundaries and drop it down to twice a day, or even just once a day, and that once a day might go on for another year, and you might be perfectly fine with that. So it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Hey, my name is Morgan. I live in Louisiana, I had an emergency C section with my first son, and I'm currently pregnant again, so I started doing some research and found out, apparently, there is a law where I could not have a home birth or birth at a birthing center because of my previous C section. So just curious, if y'all have any advice for how I should go forward, speaking of emergency C sections, I actually did a quick internet search when I first heard this question and read about this, and it's all correct. Of course, she knows best. She's done the research, but it is true that they don't support v backs at home in Louisiana. Shame on Louisiana. The people making these decisions don't know enough about birth, and there are midwives there. I read something interesting. There's a midwifery group there who said, Look, we have options. One is to do this over the state line with Mississippi, because apparently, there it is legal. Birth should always be legal. This is the part I just can't believe. But the there was an interesting thing on that website, and it said you can also retain us, and I think it was for like, $2,500 to do all your prenatal care and plan a What did it say and plan a hospital birth? They were very careful about their language. You can also retain us for all your prenatal care and plan a hospital birth. And I thought, oh, that's clever language. It almost sounds like once in a while, oops, this baby just came out.

Well, come to your home and we'll assess if you're ready to go to the hospital Exactly.

And why shouldn't people take matters into their own hands when it is their risk to take this is the very definition of taking responsibility for one's health care. It's not like smoking on an airplane, which is affecting everybody. I mean, you know, we want all parents to make responsible decisions, but society has no interest in which, I always say this in which babies are going home to drug addicts or, you know, anything, there's horrific situations in this country, and no one is considering what kind of home a newborn is going home to. Could be both parents or chain smokers. Nobody cares. But suddenly everyone seems to want to care when there's a possible benefit for the hospital to control birth rather than let women do their research. They are adults and parents who are free to have babies. And I just really am concerned when the government gets that involved in decisions like this. So I was happy to see that there were midwives out there who were doing their best to support women in whatever way they could in the state.

There's also the app. There's also the option of unlicensed midwives. I mean, if you don't have a midwife who is regulated by the state, you can have her at your birth and you can you or is it still illegal, like, who's breaking the law? Is it only a matter of the midwife breaking the law, or is it a matter of the parents breaking the law?

I don't think that there. I've never heard of an issue with parents. It's being held responsible for breaking that law would be more the provider practicing outside their scope. Oh, that's just in a scope, because they aren't regulated by the state.

Oh, so an unlicensed midwife. Then, after all, interesting. Yeah, very interesting midwife. I always think of Amy Romano, who was on our podcast in the beginning of 2020 and again in the beginning of 2021 and she's a certified nurse midwife, and she had licensed midwives at one of her home births and unlicensed at the other. And she really said it was, it's hard to say which care was better. There were benefits to the unlicensed midwives. And the whole thing sounded so counterintuitive to me at the time, I remember how surprised I felt by this Yale educated, certified nurse midwife like you, and it's interesting because it does sound like the wrong thing. Unlicensed sounds like the wrong thing, but it was very interesting because they're free of limitations, but they're still educated and trained, so an unlicensed midwife can be far superior in skill than a licensed midwife. It's, I mean, it's about her experience, yeah, very interesting.

So we are going to move on now to our extended version of today's Q A episode, which you can access on Patreon or on Apple subscriptions in the extended version of the episode, we are going to answer a question about dropping pump sessions in the night. One, about precipitous delivery and how to manage that or prevent it, or what can be done about it. And the last one was on birthing the placenta. Something remind me, I think it was about how long, something about how long to wait. Labor, how long you can wait? Okay, all right. Otherwise, it's time for quickies. Yes, it is. All right. Can't wait to hear what we have. Okay. All right. Well, let's start with this one. Since we were just discussing this, how do you handle third stage, when the placenta is taking too long? You wait.

That's the That's the short version of the long conversation we just had. In the extended version, exactly, you stay skin to skin, and you wait. We gave some red flags about providers and explained what makes a placenta detach and why that's important to understand. But yes, the takeaway is you wait and you stay in your birth zone, you keep the oxytocin flowing. That's the most important thing. And that leads into the next Quickie, which is kind of a follow up to that, which is, are there any alternatives to Pitocin when it comes to slight hemorrhage? The best alternative is oxytocin, ideally breastfeeding, right? Not to complicate it, but ideally breastfeeding, right? Well, breastfeeding is going to release more oxytocin, okay, the combination of skin to skin, nipple stimulation, breastfeeding, yes, all, all of those, okay, but it Yeah, are most skincare products safe while breastfeeding. What about retinol? So everybody wants to know about Botox and retina when they're breastfeeding. First of all, follow up to the Botox. I did look at the infant risk center report on this. And as we mentioned previously, Botox comes with risk, but there are no increased risks. Theoretically, it's impossible to have any Botox. Could never get into breast milk. You really the molecules too big, the molecules, the molecule is too big.

Do we really know that they use a lot of nano, nano particles in these products?

There might be other things in the product that could theoretically get into breast milk. But I think the risk of Botox is bigger than the risk of Botox with breastfeeding. Why?

Okay, I know this isn't the point, but why are these young women? Why are these women looking into getting Botox?

Because most young women are looking into getting Botox.

I just don't understand Botox or why. I mean, I even if they say it's safe, we just talked about how the FDA approves so many things that aren't safe. So I'm never feeling like we're not without risk on any of these things. It's not without risk. I think it's just that so many people use it and do it without problems, so people feel confident in using it, but we are going to learn about face taping.

Oh yeah, oh yeah, you mentioned something called Face taping. That sounds really strange. Okay, I know it looks crazy, it sounds strange, but nobody cares about it, so we're gonna, we're gonna learn about it. Okay, that's that's to come. All right, all right, um, it anyway. So same, most, most skincare products, if they're, if you think they're safe when you're not breastfeeding, they're safe when you are breastfeeding. A lot of skincare products are not safe, right? They're full of toxins. So the same would apply with breastfeeding. Breastfeeding doesn't make them less safe, is what I'm saying. Okay, okay. Is a public swimming pool safe for vaginal flora? Okay, here's my guess, yes, because the vagina isn't a straw, but the chlorine is usually the big question. That's usually the thing. I mean, I think it depends on how many hours you're spending in a swimming pool, yeah, right. You're just occasionally going for a swim in the third trimester. The benefit of that outweighs any risk of the chlorine, yeah. But if you're talking about being in a pool eight hours a day because you're training for something, that's probably not ideal, but for the vaginal flora, it is fine, yes, although people can definitely get yeast infections after sitting in a hot tub for too long, why a hot tub? What? Because bacteria can grow more easily. I think it alters it, because it alters the vaginal flora, and then your bacteria in your vagina can get out of balance. And theory, that could also happen in a swimming pool, yeah, but it depends on how chlorinated it is, depends how much time you're spending in there, depends on how much you value swimming, the water temperature. That probably sounds like that's a factor? Probably, yes.

Well, that makes sense. What else do we have here? My five month old is exclusively breastfeeding and has never had a bottle, and my friend is having a baby shower, and it's kid free, she has asked me not to bring the baby. So what do I do?

Bring the baby or don't go? How do you not go? She's telling you, Do you have tips on trying to introduce a bottle at five months? Or should I just not go? Well, I'm inclined to say, don't go just because she who told you not to bring your baby. It's a baby shower, for God's sakes. It's not a bridal shower. This is someone

who doesn't understand that mothers and babies are and they are meant to be inseparable for a long time these are, like all the employers who expect women to go back to work after a few weeks. It is a total disregard and a total lack of knowledge around the fact that these two beings are meant to be inseparable. Yeah, she asked her not to bring the baby. Ah, one day she'll get it.

Yeah, she's, she's having a baby shower. She should have, it's a baby shower, right? A baby shower, not a bridal shower. It's like, you don't it's like bachelorette party, wow. Baby shower. She should say, well, you're bringing your baby exactly, fine. That's right, I agree. I would say, Look, can I just wear my baby if the baby cries, or if there's any issue, I promise I'll remove myself, but I will need to nurse my baby and leave for 15 minutes every now and then. If it's really a hard nail, then I can come, maybe only for a little while. I don't think I would just oblige. That's really, that's very distressing. My mother newborn, who's exclusively breastfed, or, if you just want to, you know, show up for 45 minutes. It's not too far away. Fine. Yeah, you know, that's what I just said, Before you leave, go short time, go home. Got a one? Yep, okay, um, should you let finances be a factor in having kids or not? Did we answer this already?

My dad used to get so upset at that refrain, and he would go the other extreme and say, kids don't cost anything. It doesn't cost anything to have a child. He just would get so upset when people would bring up finances when it comes to having a child. I don't know, it just somehow really wounded him to hear people worrying about money when they I don't know, I don't know what to say. I mean, if someone is in poverty, that's that's a very dire life or death situation. If it's a pretty standard middle class family, you're never going to have a baby in regret having that person in your life in a million years. And I think not enough couples understand that for most people, they start off struggling when they're young adults, but you end up making the most of your money in your 40s and 50s. You usually end up, if you don't burden yourself with lots of debt in your life, you usually end up quite comfortable over time, if you have some kind of career path and at that point in your life, you I mean, just at any point, you would never regret having your child. So I say no, unless we are talking life or death poverty situations, of course, that's very serious, and they're kind of thinking families in this country where that is that are impacted by poverty. So I'm kind of thinking, if it's a question, then it's a no. Don't let it affect. Don't let it be an influence. Because you know, if you truly, truly, absolutely can't afford a child, you're probably just not going you're not even asking this question. But if you're analyzing your finances to figure out how much you can allocate to a child and child care and this and that, you probably have enough to have a child and make it work, and I wouldn't let it play into that.

Yeah, there's nothing material in my life that's even remotely as valuable to me as my children. So even if it's a matter of driving a different kind of car in your life, who cares just like but also you don't have to be part of the consumerist society that we have. Up and buy a million things, theoretically, and they don't really cost much. Yes, when you look into school and there are things that can come up, I mean, but yeah, you don't have to buy into all of that. That's part of the problem. Actually. Just the consumerism that we have is really a key part of it. Anyway. It's a personal question. It's really hard to comment, but those are some of our thoughts, I would not let that be a big factor, if that's what I would say. Okay, last one, if you could bottle up one cent and smell it whenever you wanted, what would it be?

When I was growing up, we had woods in our backyard, and I spent a lot of time in the woods, and there was a beautiful stream about an acre away at the edge of our property, and the stream led into a lake that would freeze over, and we would ice skate on the lake in the woods, and it was idyllic and beautiful. And once in a while when I'm hiking, or once in a while in springtime, I get a scent in the air that just fills me with the most incredible happiness. So I don't really know what I would call it, but it's something to do with a scent in the air in the woods, even the scent of a skunk, totally happy feelings for me. It just reminds me of being in the woods, very sick. Yeah, you love it. The smell of a skunk, yeah, it just makes me feel very happy and waking up birds also, like, that's what they weren't asking about sound. But wait, but birds, I woke up every morning spring and summer with my the windows in my bedroom open, or the screen on the screens on the windows. And it just like the sound of birds in the morning is such a happy sound to me. It always brings me back to my childhood. So sound and scent, that's that's all I could think of. What about you? That's a cool question, the smell of a newborn baby. Oh, I mean, you can't beat that. You could just take that in forever.

Well, you're lucky to spend so much time around newborns. Then, yes, yes, I am. But there's nothing like the smell of your own newborn baby. My second would be the smell of Palo Santo. I was sure you were going to say chicken wings.

They taste good. But I don't know if I like that. How they smell, but they sure taste good.

All right, everyone, that's okay. That's a wrap. Is a wrap. So please don't forget, if you enjoy the show, those reviews on Apple podcasts or Spotify make a huge difference to us. You don't have to write a lot. Just pop on over there and leave a five star. If you love the show. We really appreciate that. And keep your questions coming. You can call anytime 802-438-3696, if you are curious about our Patreon content, we've got so much good stuff over there, please consider joining. You can sign up for a month. You can sign up for as long as you want. You can change your plan anytime. You can also sign up for free and visit the shop and download individual workshops that are relevant to you. And what else?

Well, the only other thing is to share. The podcast would be so special and valuable on social media, if there's a clip that you want to share or you're listening. We'd love to know where you're listening, if you just like screen record apart while you're going for your walk or something. We love that. But also just if you have a friend or women in your prenatal yoga class or your postpartum group, anything you can do to share. We have hundreds of episodes. Obviously, on so many topics, there's so much good free information. And you know, that's just we really want to improve things and build this community and improve things in this culture of ours, where teams are going the wrong direction too much of the time, in too many areas of birth and postpartum, all we can do is talk. Spread the love. See you next time. All right. Bye. Adios. 

Thank you for joining us at the Down To Birth Show. You can reach us @downtobirthshow on Instagram or email us at Contact@DownToBirthShow.com. All of Cynthia’s classes and Trisha’s breastfeeding services are offered live online, serving women and couples everywhere. Please remember this information is made available to you for educational and informational purposes only. It is in no way a substitute for medical advice. For our full disclaimer visit downtobirthshow.com/disclaimer. Thanks for tuning in, and as always, hear everyone and listen to yourself.