#337 | Toddlers & New Siblings: Expert Tips from Devon Kuntzman of Transforming Toddlerhood

Bringing a new baby home is exciting—but it can feel overwhelming when you’re worried about how your toddler will adjust. You may be wondering: Will my toddler feel jealous? How do I handle tantrums? How do I keep my child feeling loved while caring for a newborn?

In this episode, toddler expert Devon Kuntzman, author of the book Transforming Toddlerhood: How to Handle Tantrums and Power Struggles and Raise Resilient Kids Without Losing Your Mind, joins us to share practical wisdom for parents navigating this transition. In this discussion, we explore how to decode toddler behavior without harmful labels, set loving boundaries that build security, and handle big emotions—whether in the safety of your home or the middle of a grocery store. We discuss sibling jealously, strategies for parental preference, how to handle tantrums, time-outs, spanking and boundaries. Then we ask Devon your questions at the end, quickie style! 

Watch this episode in full video format on YouTube.

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Transcript

I'm Cynthia Overgard, birth educator, advocate for informed consent, and postpartum support specialist. And I'm Trisha Ludwig, certified nurse midwife and international board certified lactation consultant. And this is the Down To Birth Show. Childbirth is something we're made to do. But how do we have our safest and most satisfying experience in today's medical culture? Let's dispel the myths and get down to birth.

Hi, I'm Devin Kunzman. I'm so excited to be here today. I am a toddler expert and the founder of Transforming Toddlerhood and the author of the upcoming book Transforming Toddlerhood: How to Handle Tantrums and Power Struggles and Raise Resilient Kids Without Losing Your Mind. And today, we're here to talk about how to help your toddler adjust to a new sibling at home. 

And I'm so excited to chat about this, a very challenging topic for people, very challenging experience for people in their minds before it happens. I think, I think it's not it can be challenging after it happens, but it's really a scary concept. So we're all very excited to hear your insights and your work on this, and we have lots of questions from our community that we will ask you to answer at the end. But where would you like to begin? Oh, my goodness. Well, I just want to say that yes, this does seem sometimes really hard, right? And I have so many parents come to me and say, gosh, like, I just don't know if I can, like, love another kid as much as I love my first kid, and so they're worried about that transition. But then they're like, Well, my toddler's used to being with me all the time, and then I'm going to have a baby. How are they going to know what to do here? And so I just want to say to all the parents who are embarking on this transition to bring a new sibling to the family. I just want you to know that it's okay to feel this way, and toddlers are very resilient, and that, yes, they might have some ups and downs during the transition, but in the end, everyone's going to come out on the other side. So I was thinking that today we could maybe start by talking about, what are some of the things to maybe expect when you bring home a new sibling and you have a toddler at home.

So what can you first define toddler? My son was four years and three months when I had my daughter, and I'm just, I'm keep visualizing that stage of our lives as you're speaking. But is that past the toddler stage now. So what age group are we talking about?

Yeah, so what we're talking about here are the toddlers are ages one to five, and I always say young toddlers are ages one to two, and then older toddlers are ages three to four, because from one to four kids are going through a lot of the same challenges and struggles, but at three to four, they have a lot better understanding of expressive language and how to share what they're thinking and feeling with their words. And then five year olds are transitioning out of toddlerhood into the school age years.

Okay, everyone is going to want to know right from the beginning, is there an optimal window of time between children to introduce the second child?

Well, here's the thing. I mean, in the end, what I think is, of course, it depends. Some people love having two under two, because they feel like, okay, we have kids like, kind of in similar stages. There's still. Some are in diapers, still taking a lot of naps, and so that's really great. Other people are like, Oh, having a four year old and a newborn is great, because I don't have to worry about naps or diapers anymore. So I don't have to worry about that. My child's way more independent. But then you have a baby who has one set of needs and a toddler has another set of needs. But when it comes to this introduction, typically, you really look at if you have five or six years gap, that's when your child is really going to be less impacted, I guess, by doing this transition, because they're out of that egocentric developmental period, because from ages one to four, it's a very egocentric developmental period where kids think everything is about them and for them, and so that's when it can be harder to think, Well, how do I share that person who's most important to me? But toddlers are also really resilient, as I said before, and are able to adjust quite easily too.

I think that nature has had to have designed this pretty well, because around the world, natural child spacing tends to be about 18 to 24 months or so, somewhere in that time frame. So it just seems like nature would have this figured out, that kids would be resilient and would be able to adapt, and that this is actually probably good for them,

absolutely, I think that it's a lot of times it's our own personal fears, or our own personal like lack of confidence, when some big behaviors come up, because it's common For toddlers to just be fine with things. But then maybe after a month or so, they say, Hey, when's the baby going back in your belly, or something like this, or maybe they test more limits or have more tantrums. And then sometimes we're thinking, Oh, we've done something bad or wrong by having another child. Look how hard. It is for the for my other kids, but in the grand scheme of things, just if your toddler is having more tantrums, testing limits more just generally acting out, it doesn't mean that, like there's a problem here. It just means that your toddler is having typical toddler behavior. But I think it's the lens that we look at it through, when we think, Oh, this is a problem, then we start to get stressed, and then that's where I think some of the challenges start coming in.

I really agree with you. In speaking with parents, I've heard them assign emotions to toddlers that they don't necessarily know for sure, I've seen toddlers behave in totally normal ways. It's a very strange transition when there's a new baby in the house, and I've seen parents say things like, Oh, they're jealous or oh, they don't like the baby. And, you know, we don't know what a toddler is feeling. In fact, they really don't have a vocabulary to understand what they're feeling themselves, so to assign an emotion to it, like jealousy, I think is really harmful, because we're kind of accusing that toddler of having an emotion that then we may judge, like, That's not nice, that's a now we're really down, I think, a very dangerous path if we just allow, allow them to have their responses, allow them to feel what they're feeling, without labels, without having opinions on good or bad, right and wrong. I think that's probably the smartest way through this, this transition period. But of course, you're the expert, and I'm very curious to hear what you think about that and and then proceeding with with the rest of it.

Yeah, well, I think this is such a great point that you brought up. And not only do labels you're right have us maybe respond more harshly when we put a negative label on a behavior, but also it can become a self fulfilling prophecy, right? So when we're putting a label on a child, whether it's positive or negative, we're kind of boxing that kid into something. And at this stage, kids are really learning who they are for the very first time. So those type of labels can start to stick, and then you'll start to see that. So what I like to say, instead of putting a label on the behavior, try to instead be neutral and describe the behavior that happens. So for example, if your toddler just hit the baby, and then you say, Oh, they must be jealous, or oh, they're, you know, don't like the baby, something like this. What you could say instead is, oh, my toddler hit the baby. I wonder what's happening here. And then you're opening with curiosity, instead of a label that then allows you to kind of see, okay, what's happening? Is this a bid for connection? Does your toddler just literally not have enough life experience, right? They don't know the proper way to interact with a baby? Is it a bid for connection with the baby? For you, you know, there's so many things to take a look at here, so that is really my tip surrounding on how to handle those moments where we want to just, you know, put put a story or a label on the behavior.

So that's the parents, the mother's internal response. She's going to ask herself that question, take a breath, ask herself that question, get curious, and then what is her response to the child?

Yeah, well, if we just keep running with this example of hitting. And so what you might say is, first of all, hitting is kind of a different example, because it involves safety, right? There's a safety risk, like, we can't hit the baby, right? So what I always recommend at first here is to say something like, I won't let you hit the baby and either move your toddler or move the baby to safety, because we have to establish that physical safety before we can respond in an emotionally safe way. Once that physical safety has been established, then you might come back to what I was saying before, something like, Oh, what happened here? You might describe what was happening like, Oh, you were playing with your toys, then you walked over and hit the baby. What happened? And now, if you have a one or two year old, they're not probably going to be able to respond to you, right, because they have very little expressive language skills, but they can likely understand what you're saying, because they have the receptive language skills of understanding language. So then from there, you might see, you might say again, like, oh, hitting hurts, or hitting is unsafe. I won't let you hit. And then you can say, this is how you can play with the baby like this, or this is how we touch the baby like that. And so you can show the proper way to, you know, interact with the baby. But if you think it was trying to get your attention, then you might say something like, Oh, if you need mama, you can come over and tap my leg and say, excuse me, mama, or Mama, I need you. So that's why the curiosity part is so important, because when we get curious about the feeling, emotion or need beneath the behavior, then we can. Respond in an appropriate way. Because if we're only reacting to the behavior, on the surface, we don't know why the behavior is happening. It's hard to transform the behavior. So to transform the behavior, we have to get curious about what was this behavior trying to accomplish, and then that teaches us, gives us good information on how we can respond, to teach skills, to have your child there respond differently.

So what happens when we respond with a punishment or a scolding? Because obviously that's a very common reaction in parents. What happens to the mother and what happens to the child when they respond tha way? Yeah, it's challenging, right? Because, oh gosh, we're just trying to keep everyone safe. We're probably exhausted. We probably need a snack, you know, all the things. So I just want to say, go easy on yourself, right? I mean, it's easy to feel guilty after it happens and feel like you're failing or that you're a bad parent. You're not You're just a human. You're a human with feelings, needs and emotions that need taken care of, and that's okay, and this is an invitation to get supported and have it go differently for the child. Oftentimes, when we scold them, it doesn't necessarily help them accomplish what they needed to. So we might see the behavior continue happening, especially if they're feeling disconnected from you, or they're feeling upset because they got scolded, even if they're feeling embarrassed, that can lead to more dysregulated behavior. And so oftentimes, when kids are scolded, you'll see one or two things happening. Either they'll stop, but then they're kind of learning to people please, to like, put their feelings and emotions to the side and just do what other people are saying. Or you'll see them have more and more big behaviors because they're feeling more and more dysregulated. Or they may have, like, a more of, like, a spirited personality where they're going to, like, push back and do the opposite of whatever you say, which is common in toddlerhood too.

I really like that you said earlier. It might be a bid for connection. And I'm thinking maybe that has thrown off some of our listeners. They can be thinking, What is she talking about? But I think that was really I think that was really good point. Can you just explain what you mean by that when you say maybe it was a bid for connection?

Absolutely. So the reason I say this is because it's very common for us to say something like, oh, they just want attention. They're doing that for attention. And for some reason, when we say it like that, like they're doing this for attention, it's like somehow wrong, bad and negative. So we respond in a more harsh way. But the reframe of this is a bid for connection. It means your child is trying to connect with you, which is a lot of what attention seeking behavior is, is just trying to re establish that connection, especially when there's a new baby concerned, because your toddler's asking themselves, like, what is my position in the family? Am I still loved? Am I still, you know, part of this family, so they're just really trying to find where they fit in. So a bid for connection is a more developmentally accurate reframe that can help us really understand the root of the behavior and respond in a more compassionate, positive way. I would love to maybe talk about some of the things that we might do in toddle and when we have a new baby that might actually make your toddler's behavior worse. So kind of like some things to look out for that might make behavior worse. Okay, so some of those things might be blaming the baby so saying something like to your toddler, I can't play with you because I have to feed the baby, or I can't play with you because I got to put the baby down for a nap. It can be really hard for toddlers to hear that, right? And it might trigger them to start acting out or trying to, you know, do things to get your attention. And so the thing that you want to do here, instead of saying no, which triggers their developmental drive to push against you, you might say something like, and can also kind of make the baby like something negative. That's always like in the way for your toddler, you can turn a no into a not yet. So that would be something like, instead of saying, I can't play with you because I have to feed the baby, you might say, I'm so excited to play with you. What do you want to play? Oh, you want to play dolls. Okay, when I'm done feeding the baby, I'm coming to play dolls with you. Can you? Go get your dolls out. Go get them ready so you see how that is, that response is now more positive for your toddler than just getting a no, and it's going to help the relationship building the relationship between your toddler and the baby. If we're always blaming the baby, it really makes the baby seem like something negative to your toddler.

I would even add to that. Maybe you would say, why don't you go get a baby doll and bring it to show your baby what a baby doll looks like, even though the baby obviously can't see the baby doll. But the point is that making the child feel like the baby is part of their world, and that's something that sort of happened to them, but that's it's something that is actually for them? Yeah, I feel makes a really big difference, because it's that, it's that sort of shutting down and saying, No, like you said that. You know, I can't, because of this new thing that is now in your world. Now has changed your world. I can't give you what I could give you before. That's the thing that is really upsetting to the child.

Yes, and this is actually a toddler tip that I have in my upcoming books. I have a whole chapter on helping your toddler adjust to a new sibling. And one of the toddler tips is getting your toddler baby, because the baby is really great for preparing your toddler for the baby to arrive, if they have a baby doll, so you can like, you know, show your toddler how like you're going to change the baby's diaper, get them involved in it. You can show your toddler how to like, interact and touch a baby, how to hold a baby. You can practice all of these things with a baby doll before the baby comes. Then once the baby comes, your toddler has this baby doll to kind of mimic the work that you're doing with the real baby, that they can mimic it with their baby doll. So there's so many positive things about getting your toddler a baby doll, and this would apply to male and female children just the same, right? I mean, 1,000% in my mind, yes. I just think that there's a, you know, there is somewhat of a stereotype that only girl toddlers would have baby dolls.

Yep, I'm so glad you brought that up. And there's actually a lot of research out there that shows that when both boys and girls have baby dolls to play with in the early years, that it really increases their ability to nurture and it actually like you can see that down the road, like their nurturing skills have increased when kids have a baby doll from a young age.

When I was pregnant with my daughter and my son was walking around running errands with me. He was three and a half years old or so during most of that pregnancy, I was always surprised by the number of people who said to him, Oh, are you going to help mommy when she has the baby? I bet you're going to be a big help to mommy. And I've I still think about that all these years later, and just some mixed emotions around it, I can see on the plus side, giving the child a need for significance, right, like you have a new role and a need for feeling, maybe important, that they are in an empowered position to help. But I also felt that I don't know, I want to hear your opinion on this. There was a part of it that, on an emotional level, just felt unfair to me, like I was he was entitled to also be my child. He was entitled to be my toddler, and he didn't ask to become a helper. Now, of course, I had many moments where he helped me, and it was a sweet little moment between us. But the label of like, now you're going to be helping mom because she has another baby to take care of, just never sat quite right with me. Can you comment on what you think about that? I'm sure you've heard it as well.

Yeah, absolutely. So what we know developmentally for toddlers is that toddlers do have a lot of developmental needs that really drive their behavior, and one of those is to feel capable, and another one of those is to have a role in the family. So we know that toddlers feel empowered when those things happen for them at the same time, that can be fulfilled in so many different ways. And I do think that assuming that a toddler is going to be happy and be a helper with the baby doesn't necessarily leave room for the toddler to have their feelings about this transition and all the things that are happening to them, especially because toddlers don't have a lot of control over their lives, and as you said, they definitely don't have control Over if they have another sibling or not. So I think while it's well intentioned to say something like that, it can kind of take away a toddler's the space for a toddler to like have their own feelings and emotions about it, and as you said, to let them still be a child as well. And so I think it's really about finding a balance. That there might be moments that your toddler wants to, like, bring a diaper or go get, like, a pacifier for the baby, and there might be other times that they want nothing to do with the baby, and both of those are okay, and it doesn't mean anyone's doing something bad or wrong,

and it should just be up to the toddler when those moments are, what they are, whatever they are.

Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the thing. It's like, we can, like, put the invitation out there, but it's the toddler. Your toddler can choose to accept the invitation or not.

There was another area where I did something contradictory to whatever. When around us was doing it seemed okay. There were so many people who would say to my son, oh, you're gonna have someone to play with. Now you're gonna have someone to play with. And I thought, Whoa, like, first of all, for months and months, this baby is going to be in my arms or wrapped on my body. And what a way to set an expectation too high. So I did the opposite with my son, when I was hanging out with him, with a touch of humor between the two of us. I would say things like, Alex, you would not believe how long a baby will cry sometimes, sometimes the baby will cry and cry and will have no idea why. And he would scrunch his nose and smile and be like, really? And I would say, you won't believe it. Sometimes they just cry and cry. Sometimes we'll be in the car and they'll just be screaming. I would just set him up for that, because those moments were inevitably going to be in our future. And there were others where I said, Oh, and wait till you see. Sometimes when we're leaving the house, we'll have to go right back inside and change a diaper, and then I'll have to nurse the baby again, and then will it. And he would just scrunch his nose and smile and be like, that's what a baby does. And there were so many moments in the following year where I thought, thank God I lowered his expectations, because here's one of those moments. And he almost gave me a wink wink, like, up here it is, because he was expecting it. And I was, I was so happy about that.

Yeah, this is such a great example of realistically preparing your toddler for a new baby's arrival, like talking about what real life will look like, right? And it reminds me of a good friend who she was telling me one time her toddler was so upset when he wanted her to put him to bed. And she was with the baby. Baby was crying. Baby needed nurse, all the things, and he her toddler was just so upset. Didn't want daddy to put him to bed. And she said something like, you know, it's hard having a baby. Sometimes she just cries all the time, and she's always needs fed, and you can't even play with her right now. She just has to sit in my arms a lot. You can't even play with her. And then her son was, like, two and a half of the time, he just kind of sat there for a second and kind of took it in, and then went, Yeah, you're right, and then, like, walked off to his room, and then his dad put him to bed, you know? And it's just such a great example of how powerful connection is as a tool. Connection is one of our best parenting tools. Now, if we're only using connection, we're not setting limits in teaching skills. Those are also important parts of the recipe for effective discipline, which I talk about at length in my book. But connection is such a powerful tool that can de escalate so many situations when your toddler is having a hard time with a new sibling, or in many other situations too.

And I don't think we realize that young children have empathy right from the beginning, like they understand that emotion, and they not that you're going to put a lot of your feelings on them, but little things like that they they can totally understand and relate and empathize.

Yeah, it's like people don't think that toddlers like understand empathy, and they absolutely do. Now. They can't always access it, right? Because when they're middle of their own, you know, emotional release, tantrum, having big feelings and emotions, they can't access that part of their brain in moments when they are calmer or they're coming down from having a tantrum. They absolutely can access that empathy, and it's just great to know, because we can actually talk to our toddlers as people, right and give them age appropriate information like we don't have to treat them. We don't want to treat them like adults, but we also don't want to treat them like babies, so we have to find that in between ground

talk to us about boundaries. Why is it so difficult for parents to sometimes set boundaries, and what kind of boundaries should we be setting, and how strict on the boundaries should we be, and what's the benefit of boundaries?

Yes, I talk about this at length every day, because it's a challenge. Like I even I have a three year old at home, and my husband and I talk about this all the time, like, where are we setting a limit? Where aren't we? I think the biggest thing to know is that limits are super important, because if you don't step in and set limits and create the container and the boundaries, then your toddler is going to test, test, test, and try to fill that space. And toddlers operate best when they have a sense of control within your boundaries that you set. The number one thing that parents need to remember, gosh, there's actually two things. The two top things parents need to remember is that only set limits you're willing to follow through on if you're not willing to follow through on it, don't set the limit, because then you're going to end up backtracking and your toddlers won't take you seriously when you. Set a limit, if they're used to you just backtracking on it. The second thing is, when you set a limit, that's the starting point, not the end point. The starting point you set the limit, your toddler is going to test it, so you have to follow through on the limit. And then when your toddler sees that you're serious, they're probably gonna have a big reaction, they're gonna cry, they might scream, they might kick, they might, you know, throw a fit. And then it's your job to keep holding that limit and supporting their emotions, and it's your child's job to accept it. But when your child cries, whenever you set a limit, that's part of the process of them releasing the frustration that of not being in charge or being in control, and then they eventually will accept the limit, as long as we uphold the limit and hold the space for them,

and they'll grow up feeling a lot more safe and secure as a result of those limits.

Absolutely, I mean, it's because when toddlers don't have those limits and boundaries that create that it's, I think, like, think of it as like a container, then they are going to keep pushing, pushing, pushing, until they run into something, you know, until they run into the limit. And so and toddlers can feel very out of control when they have that much power. Toddlers like to have a sense of control, but they can't be all powerful, because that's too much responsibility for them.

And this carries into childhood and young adulthood as well. You know that children are still seeking limits and discipline. They actually like discipline, because that is what makes them feel that they have a safe container. Because if it's endlessly open, they don't know where the edge is.

Yep, absolutely, it's a very important part of helping kids be successful, right? You want to set those those limits and boundaries, and you also want to give them some freedom within them, so they can try something, make a mistake, learn, but it has to be in the container that you create.

So how do you advise the mother who's feeling that setting boundaries is creating a negative relationship with her child, or she's feeling like it's creating a dislike from her child, or she's afraid that that's what's happening, that they're going to her child's not going to like her if she has firm boundaries. Yeah.

Well, I think the important thing to remember is, first, know your parenting role. I have a chapter about this in my book where you kind of go through four different type of roles, and you need to know how to be in the Empowered role of a confident leader and guide when you're in that role. Then you want to look at the recipe for effective discipline. If you're only setting limits all the time. You fall into the role of the controlling commander, where you're fighting where you're in control and your toddler's feelings, emotions and needs are not being thought about or taken care of. So that can make that disbalance that you're speaking of. But at the other end, if you don't set any limits and you let your child be in control, now you're the permissive pushover, and that's not going to work either, right? And so what we want to do is be in the role of the confident leader and guide, and then focus on the recipe for effective discipline, where we're creating connection, physical connection, emotional connection, where we're setting limits and following through, and then we're teaching skills. So when we have the full recipe for effective discipline, then we are not going to be in a situation where we feel like alls were due is just like setting limits and disciplining and all of this, because what we're doing is developmentally smart discipline, because we're taking the child's needs and feelings into account, setting clear limits and following through on them and teaching them the skills they need to be successful in life.

Can you give us, like, a handful of quick tips or things that a parent should definitely do in preparation for the new baby coming into the home, like, what should they do in the first week or the first month to ensure a smooth transition? Sure.

So what I would say is that when it comes to your toddler meeting the baby, one great idea is maybe to have the baby bring your toddler a gift. So then that already makes this baby a little bit exciting, right? Because the baby arrived and you're getting all these gifts for the baby, and it can be really hard for a toddler. So if the baby brings the toddler a small gift, it's a great way to get the get the relationship started on like a really positive note, I would say, finding time to have just even 10 to 15 minutes of one on one time a day with your toddler to just play with them and follow their lead in the play that that 15 minutes of one on one time with connection, where the toddler is really leading the way, is going to help your relationship with your toddler a lot. When your toddler is getting used to the way things are like a whole new way of being in the family. Um. And then I would say, also, catch your toddler having the behavior you want them to have, the behavior that you want to see, whether it's with the baby or just in other situations, and acknowledge it out loud. Giving your toddler positive reinforcement is training your brain to see the good and what your toddler is doing, instead of only the things you don't want them to do, and it helps your toddler know that you notice those things and they're going to be more likely to do it. So say your toddler, you know, brings a toy over the to the baby. You might just say something like, Oh, thanks for thinking about your sister and bringing that toy over. Look she's smiling, or, look she's waving, you know, something like this, or, thanks for waiting for me to read a book. I'm so excited to read free with you. So just give really acknowledging that positive behavior out loud.

And are there any common things that parents do that you see parents doing that are absolute no nos?

Um, well, one thing we talked about is this idea of blaming the baby. I think the other thing is, like creating unnecessary transitions. There's sometimes parents are like, Oh, I have a new baby coming, so I better get my toddler potty trained before the baby gets here, or I better get my toddler into, like, out of a crib before the baby gets here. But having a new sibling is a really big transition, so creating other transitions at the same time might be too overwhelming for some toddlers, depending on their personalities, so that's when you would maybe want to not do those other transitions at the same time, as bringing home or preparing to bring home a new sibling.

Like moving a toddler into their own bedroom when the new baby arrives, and exactly with the parents, right? Try to do that before, or just have both in the bedroom for a

while. Yeah, because I just see a lot of parents, it's like, you know, four weeks to baby, or six weeks to baby, and then it's like, want to do all these, like, transitions, all of a sudden, and it's like, Wait, like you're already embarking in a really big transition. Like, keep some consistency for your toddler in these areas, and, like, prepare for this big transition of the baby coming instead.

Those are really helpful pointers. So we have a few questions from our community that I promised that we would have you answer some of these we may have touched on already, but let's see what else we have here? This is a question about the Mother Son bond. How do I fit it in when all he wants is dad, but most of the day he is with me?

Yeah, parental preferences is challenging and so and oftentimes it's hard whenever you're not the preferred parent. So what I would say is that in these situations, finding time to do that, 15 minutes a day of play, of like, whatever your toddler wants to play, say they're in the trucks or dinosaurs, like, really letting them lead the play and get in there and just let them lead it and you follow. Can be really, really rewarding. Or if there's an opportunity, if you have a small baby, if small baby can stay with you know, your husband for an hour or so and take your son on a really fun outing, even if they're a little bit upset in the beginning, if you're going somewhere really fun, that can be really helpful, or if you know your husband gets out of the house with the baby, and then you and your son do something special. But I think it's like looking for the small moments to build the bond. It doesn't always have to be a grand gesture. Look for the little moments and look for the things that your toddler is interested in, and build off of those interests, and that can be really helpful, too.

How should you handle tantrums in public where you can't just let them cry?

Yes, well, so it's interesting, because sometimes we feel like we can't just let them cry, right? Because people are looking people might be upset, but I think I really need to do an Instagram post about this, like it's okay to normalize young children taking up space in this world. Your toddler is acting in a developmentally appropriate way. There's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with them, and they are actually a citizen of this world and allowed to take up space in the world even if they're having big emotions. However, if you really feel that the tantrum is just too overwhelming for you, for your toddler to be crying like in a store, then what you can do is abandon your cart there, or at the front of the customer service or near the front door, and you can go outside for a minute. Sometimes going outside and getting getting fresh air already can help going to your car, wherever you need to be, for you to be calm, because the quickest way to help your toddler get over a tantrum is for you to calm your nervous system. And if that's better done outside the store, that's okay too. I like that abandoned

cart, abandoned

cart that was that was almost foolproof for me, if my daughter was crying. Buying or having a tantrum in the house, I just had to get out the front door and it would stop. I also think that this question is a good question in what not to do, because there are some things in life where we don't always know what to do, but we have to make sure we we know what not to do. And I feel like there isn't necessarily a magical response to what you do when you're in those difficult moments, but there are things not to do. Like, what not to do, I would say, is, first of all, to every extent possible. First of all, don't be embarrassed. Just make a decision not to be embarrassed. It's it's inherently embarrassing because we're we don't want to disturb other people. But I think when a mother gets embarrassed, that's the root of a lot of the things not to do. And I think so what that can lead to is one, threatening or getting angry at the child. I've seen mothers do that in stores, like, Don't you dare. Don't know, I so help me if you don't. I've seen mothers just panic and get very threatening to the child. And then the second thing, of course, we all know is when you indulge it and you like grab food and hand them food or candy and you try to appease it, because it does not take long for an intelligent little child to learn that you're going to go into appeasement mode, and it becomes a really good tactic for them to get something that they want. So that's also the trap. But yeah, I, for me, what comes to mind quickly is what not to do very much faster than what necessarily to do. Any thoughts on that?

Yeah, well, those are great points. And one thing I want to say is that, you know, if other people are upset about your toddler crying, it has more to do with them and their life experiences and their nervous system, and less to do with you and your toddler. And it's really tempting to just like, bust out your phone or an iPad or something like that, but when we when we use screens to try to get a child to stop having a tantrum, there's a lot of research around that that shows that it's really not a great thing to do, and we can see that intuitively, because we're teaching to use a screen to soothe emotions, and it'd be the same thing, like if we're giving a child like food, using food to soothe emotions. It's not the cycle that we want to set up. What we want to do is let our kids have their emotional release and then help them come back to their emotional equilibrium. And that does, and that can't happen on our time. That happens on their time, and that's the hard part.

Do you believe in timeouts? And if not, what are the alternatives?

Yeah, so when we think about it, timeouts don't necessarily help us, because we're a lot of listeners. I'm curious. Have you ever put your child in timeout and then, like, heard your child go ballistic, like they were already crying, and now they're like, next level, right? They're screaming, they're flopping, they're kicking. I mean, they like, really lost it. The reason that this often happens is because children calm down best, as I was saying before, through us sharing our calm with them. That's co regulation. And so if we're putting a child in timeout, we're separating them from their safe and secure base. And so children need our help when they're this little to have those skills to calm down. And so I don't recommend timeouts. What I do recommend is the recipe for effective discipline, which is creating connection and then setting limits and following through, and then teaching skills Once your child is calm again, to have it go differently, which I go to in detail in the book,

someone asked about your thoughts on spanking, awesome.

Well, what I would say is that spanking is one of those things where it is absolutely clear over spanning 50 plus years of research that spanking your child leads to outcomes that we don't want to see right including it will lead to increased aggressive behavior, increased anxiety, increased depression, increased challenges and Relationships down the road, across the board, all the meta studies over the last 50 plus years show us that spanking is not the way.

That's a really good example of what not to do when sometimes we don't know what to do, yes, just well, we can't necessarily say what to do, but don't hit your child.

Yes, yes. And also, like, there's this idea that sometimes, like, Oh, if my child hits I need to hit them to show them what it feels like. Or my child bites me, I need to bite my child to, like, show them what it feels like. But again, we have to remember that that children at this age, I didn't say this yet, have very immature brains and very little life experience, and so they're going through a time of rapid brain maturation, and this is not the best way to teach them through fear and pain. It's because that is like creating the neuropathways and connections for those pathways that are not going to serve them well.

Back to the timeouts. I just wanted to make a comment that Alfie Kohn has done some outstanding work. And I was lucky enough to find him 20 years ago when I had my baby. And he's completely he's a PhD. He's done tons of research, many books. One of them is called punished by rewards. And there's also a video out there on Amazon of him giving a stand up presentation. But he's very anti rewards and punishment. Rewards and punishment, which is contrary to how parenting has gone in this country for decades. But it is quite revolutionary, and he has some very compelling points on the matter. And I would really suggest anyone look ahead. Are you familiar with him?

Yeah, he's he's amazing. It's so great. And another thing that can be really helpful for parents here is understanding the different types of consequences and those that can be really helpful, natural consequences, logical consequences and arbitrary consequences. And arbitrary consequences are basically punishments, and again, punishments are not, is not what teaches a child. We don't want to ask, What punishment does this behavior need? What consequence does this behavior need? What we want to ask ourselves is, what skill Does my child need to be successful here? What Does my child need to do or know to have this go differently? That's where we want to focus on teaching skills, not rewards and punishments.

One more, what do you do when you make a mistake? For example, a punishment, or you yell, you get upset, and your kids are still behaving poorly?

Yes, I'm so glad you asked this one. So first of all, just know you're not a bad parent. You are a human being, and we are going to make mistakes. Because all humans make mistakes. It's like inherent to being human. So what really matters is, what are you going to do after you make the mistake? Are you going to beat yourself up? Are you going to tell yourself you're failing, you're a bad parent? Are you going to let that impact your whole day? Or are you going to say, Wow, that's not what I wanted to do. I'm committed to doing things differently. Here's what I'm going to do next time this happens, and then you go repair the relationship with your child, and I have a four step process for repairing the relationship. I have a free download on my website, and also it's in the book as well, and with a download on how to repair the relationship. But it's just so important to really take ownership of your impact, apologize and practice what you're going to do next time, so you can start creating new habits and new neural pathways and connections in your brain.

Yeah, one thing I've said in my Postpartum Support Group to women is good luck if you think your child isn't going to know you better than anyone on Earth. No one on the planet knows anyone else better than a parent and a child, because parents are staring at their children all the time, and children are staring at their parents all the time, and there's no just as you know every single mood of each of your parents. There's no way you're going to have a personality trait or a flaw that your child isn't going to observe and experience at some point. So while we do, we can change ourselves better, ourselves become calmer, wiser adults. We can change things in ourselves like I remember, maybe it was 15 years ago I remember declaring to my husband and I kept my promise to a very good extent. I said I'm going to stop interrupting. I can't believe how much I catch myself interrupting these poor kids. They're trying to get a thought together, and I'm helping them along. And I just said, I'm not going to interrupt them anymore. And it was a change I was able to make. And another time I said, I caught myself not making eye contact. I was cooking, and I kept my eyes on the food, and I was going, Uh huh. And I said, I'm going to stop what I'm doing and look at my children. So we can change ourselves along the way, when we disappoint ourselves, but take the pressure off a little bit. Don't you think we have this vision when we have a newborn, we're going to be these magically perfect mothers, and it's like, let that go right now. No fat chance not going to happen. They're going to really get to know you perfectly.

This is an under better or worse. Yes, this is a theme in my book, like throughout every chapter, is that your kids do not need a perfect parent. They do not need a robot. They need a human being, parent, and all the things that come with that, because the mistakes are opportunities, opportunities for learning, for growth, for love. And what's so beautiful about these early years is that toddlers live in the present moment. They truly love unconditionally. I have in the front of my book, I have a list of all the reasons I love the toddler years. And toddlers really love unconditionally, and so likely they're moving on way faster than we're moving on in that moment. So repair the relationship. Move on. And you know, you got this

the final thing Devin in the beginning of the episode, you touched on the point of worrying about bringing the second child into the family and not having enough love for that child. And it seems impossible when you have so much love for your first child that you could possibly. Love another one just the same. Can you please comment on that?

Yeah, absolutely. I just want to say that I hear this a lot as like the I mean, I hear so often all the worries parents have when they're bringing a new sibling home. And this one comes up often. And I just want to say that, you know, we're human beings, and we're made to love and that that unconditional love is going to be there when your new baby comes, just like that, unconditional love is going to be there for your toddler when that new baby comes. There might be moments where it looks like your toddler does not like this new baby, but that sibling love is unconditional at this age, and so just because your toddler might be having a hard time or you might be having a hard time one day postpartum, doesn't mean the Love's not there.

All right. So Devin, this was such a great conversation. Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to have you. Can you just tell us, I we should have asked this at the beginning, but what are your credentials and how you got into this? And then just remind us, please the name of your book and when it's going to be released.

Yes. So I have a degree in psychology with a focus in child development. I'm also a certified general sleep coach, and am a professional, certified coach. And so what is so awesome is that for many years, I was actually a nanny for high profile families all over the world, and I started seeing all of the challenges that we all had with toddlerhood, and I realized that toddler toddlers are really communicating with their behavior, not having bad behavior. And once I figured that out and could help parents decode what was happening, that's when I decided to start Transforming Toddlerhood. And so my upcoming book coming out on October 21 Transforming Toddlerhood: How to Handle Tantrums and Power Struggles and Raise Resilient Kids Without Losing Your Mind is really the culmination of all the work that I've done and I've wrote this book to be a comprehensive parenting guide. So say you are struggling with tantrums, you turn that chapter separation anxiety. You turn the to that chapter, there's 45 short, easy to digest chapters covering every challenge you're going to face in toddlerhood. It's almost like the what to expect for the toddler years. 

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