#368 | Kristina's Vaginal Breech Birth at the Eleventh Hour

In today's episode, Kristina shares her breech birth story following a long journey marked by cycle irregularities, miscarriage, and difficulty conceiving. At 40 weeks, she learned that her baby was breech and was scheduled for a C-section, despite having been told throughout pregnancy that the baby was head down.

Unwilling to move forward with surgery, Kristina sought out an alternative and ultimately found a physician in Connecticut willing to support a hospital-based vaginal breech birth. She describes the pressure she faced from both her care team and loved ones, the process of transferring care late in pregnancy, and the decisions she made to stay aligned with her instincts.

This episode offers a detailed look at late breech diagnosis, informed refusal, and the realities of navigating hospital-based breech birth. Kristina also shares what she would do differently and what this experience taught her about trust, decision-making, and preparation.

#257 | Labor & Delivery Nurses' Roundtable: How Their Hands are Tied to Doctors' Orders

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Transcript

I'm Cynthia Overgard, birth educator, advocate for informed consent, and postpartum support specialist. And I'm Trisha Ludwig, certified nurse midwife and international board certified lactation consultant. And this is the Down To Birth Show. Childbirth is something we're made to do. But how do we have our safest and most satisfying experience in today's medical culture? Let's dispel the myths and get down to birth.

Hi. My name is Kristina. I live in Rhode Island. My daughter just had her 13-month birthday, and I live with my husband and three dogs, and I’m a registered nurse. I’m here to tell my breech vaginal birth story today, and I’m really excited to share it with everyone.

I just wanted to preface and tell you more about how our journey first started. After we got married, I had stopped birth control after being on it for about 10 years, which I do feel played a part in my problems with getting pregnant. I had a very hard time getting pregnant. My cycles were irregular. I suffered from two miscarriages. After the first one, I didn’t get my cycle for almost 90 days, so I had an ultrasound done, and it showed that I had polycystic ovaries. I never got an official PCOS diagnosis, but with irregular cycles and the polycystic ovaries, I do believe that met the criteria. Based on that and the two miscarriages, I did end up getting testing done through Boston IVF, both my husband and I. They wanted to figure out what was maybe causing this and see if anything was wrong.

Kristina, can I jump in with a question?

Yeah, yeah.

You mentioned that you think your decade on birth control, the birth control pill, I presume, could have led to these problems. Can you just share whatever theory you have or knowledge you have on that topic?

Yeah. I just feel it was probably hiding something going on with my cycles. I just got on it so young, I don’t even remember how my cycles were when I started it. So I think it was hiding an underlying issue that could have maybe been addressed or resolved sooner. It took over a year or two to get and stay pregnant, probably closer to two, which was not what I originally expected. Thankfully, all the testing was normal.

I did also hire a functional medicine doctor. Coinciding with a miscarriage, I was having full-body hives that were of unknown reason to the conventional medicine world. I did end up getting diagnosed with gut inflammation and dysbiosis. Basically, my functional medicine doctor healed that, and then I found I was pregnant with my daughter, which was really exciting. But of course, based on the history, I was very nervous. I was doing acupuncture and chiropractic in the beginning to help prepare my body and hopefully prevent nausea and keep the baby. I thankfully only had mild nausea throughout my first trimester and only vomited once. I did have multiple early ultrasounds because of my nerves and fear of another miscarriage. So I do feel like I had a lot of ultrasounds during this pregnancy, which I’m hoping in the future to really limit.

Was this an IVF pregnancy then?

No, no, no. It wasn’t. In the end, I was going through the testing there, but I knew in my heart that the actual IVF procedures were not going to be right for us. I just wanted to know that I didn’t have anything wrong, per se. Then I felt like I needed to figure out, aside from that, what could help, and I think having gut issues might have played a part.

Quick side note, I interrupted you earlier, but since we brought back the gut issue, a lesser-known side effect of the birth control pill is alteration in the gut microbiome. Of course, the foundation of all of our health starts in the gut. It is everything. That’s why functional medicine is so helpful, because they do go right to the gut as the root cause, the root source, of anything that is going on in the body, and you heal that first, and then everything else in the body is able to recalibrate and heal itself.

Yeah. I didn’t know that about birth control, but it makes sense. You’re swallowing it every day.

Yeah.

Thankfully, everything was going normal. The first trimester went really well. We had the 20-week ultrasound, and it showed an anterior placenta. I didn’t feel her move around a lot in the beginning, so that did make sense. It did also show a marginal cord insertion, which they wanted to do serial ultrasounds for, and I wasn’t very comfortable with that. I just felt like, if there wasn’t going to be an intervention that I was going to take, why am I getting more and more radiation? So I allowed one more ultrasound, and it did come back normal. This was at 28 weeks, and from there I said, I don’t want any more ultrasounds.

Let me just jump in. Ultrasound is controversial, and Trisha and I did a deep dive on it on Patreon. It’s a good thing to question. We talked about the risks of it in early pregnancy versus the risks in late pregnancy. They’re very different from each other. But it’s not radiation. It’s sonic technology, which comes with its own basket of concerns and controversies, even with the U.S. Navy using it among sea life in the oceans. So just so you know, you did not expose your baby to radiation.

Oh, good. Well, that’s reassuring. I still felt strongly about not having unnecessary tests that could cause possible further anxieties over something that isn’t really an issue. They did respect that, thankfully.

Reviewing it with my midwife, well, my midwife and I saw an OB and a midwife in the same office, and in reviewing the original ultrasound, she reached back out to the radiologist who gives the official report, and it was the computer that kind of said the marginal cord insertion. So it was kind of unnecessary for me to even have that repeat one, which made me feel like I had a hard time trusting the system in that sense.

Everything was going great. I was growing big. My baby was growing. I did let them do the Doppler every time I came in, and that was going well. I had seen my midwife, the OB, and then another mid-level provider there, and they had all palpated the baby and said she was head down. Side note: at the 20-week appointment, she was breech, but upon their feeling, they said she was head down every time I went.

For my 40-week appointment, this was the day before my 40 weeks, my midwife felt and said, “I don’t think something’s right.” It felt pretty hard up here my whole pregnancy, and I always thought it felt like a head, but they told me it was her bum. So I was like, what do I know? She did request I have an ultrasound. I agreed to it, and she was breech. So I found this out a day before my 40 weeks, which was very shocking to all of us.

I knew because of your podcast that I didn’t have to go with a C-section like she was hinting toward. I requested to try a cephalic version, so she did schedule me for the next day, which was a Friday, which was my actual 40 weeks, at the hospital. My husband and I went and met with the whole team, the doctors. We were told they do this frequently and are very successful with it. But upon talking to them, basically I got the feeling that he wasn’t even comfortable with it. So I was not going to, of course, put my baby in harm with a doctor who does them all the time if I didn’t get the feeling that he was comfortable. So we refused moving forward with that.

They scheduled me for a C-section that Monday, which I was completely heartbroken about.

How many days was that? What day was this?

So this was a Friday, on my 40 weeks, and then that Monday they scheduled the C-section. I think I cried the whole day, and that’s when I actually texted Cynthia. So thank you for being so supportive. You were eager to connect me with your midwife in Boston.

I don’t remember any of this, so tell me what happened, because women reach out to me sometimes and I honestly don’t remember. How did you get my information? Did you reach out on Instagram or something?

Somehow I got a phone number, and you answered with a beautiful voice message back. It really helped calm me down, because I was not in a good place.

Okay, good. Glad to hear it. And then I put you in touch with Nancy Wainer?

You were going to, but actually by then I had already gotten connected with this amazing doctor in Connecticut. I had reached out to multiple mom Facebook groups, and someone had given me this doctor’s name, Dr. Christopher Morosky at UConn Hospital, and he accepted me. He actually called me at 5:30 p.m. that Friday, and we spoke for a half hour. He was amazing.

Part of my struggle was my husband was really concerned with me doing anything other than what my OB office was suggesting, and a lot of family members and friends were concerned about going against that as well. They kind of just wanted me to get the C-section and meet the baby, and that was that. But I knew that was not right for me or my baby. I had done so much research and education through your podcast. I had done the Thompson Method breastfeeding course and HypnoBirthing, among other educational things, to prepare for, ideally, a natural birth.

Dr. Morosky did help calm my husband down and explained everything to him on the phone about how it happens. He’s actually an educator at the hospital also, so he had a YouTube video of how they do the vaginal breech deliveries, which was kind of cool to see. I think that was just helpful to envision how it would occur.

We met with him that Monday when I was supposed to have the C-section, which I happily canceled, and we drove about an hour, at least an hour and a half, to Connecticut to meet with the doctor. We had an hour-long appointment. It went really well. Even on that Friday, he had actually accepted me then as a patient and said if I had gone into labor, then call the hospital. He alerted all his coworkers, and he was the only one in the practice that would do the vaginal breech deliveries. So he was on call for me whenever I needed him. I’m so thankful to him and his team.

I did still continue with having appointments at my regular OBGYN office in Massachusetts. It was just easier. It was closer. So about twice a week I went for an appointment. They did a non-stress test and an ultrasound.

Kristina, how did they treat you after they knew that you had canceled the C-section and gone with another OB in another state, and you were still going to them for your prenatal care?

Yeah, were they good to you?

They were good to me. I actually work in the office, like the adult medicine on the floor above them, so I don’t know if that played a part, but they were still very good to me. I think they were confused at my decision, but the whole pregnancy I kind of asked a lot of questions and knew what to ask, and I think I was more educated than a lot of their patients. I had refused things.

Actually, I forgot to mention I did fail my one-hour glucose test, but I didn’t get a gestational diabetes diagnosis. They wanted the three-hour test, which I refused, and I opted to have my functional medicine doctor order a continuous glucose monitor that I wore for 14 days, and my sugars ended up being normal.

You’re like the queen of grazing these things and not getting a diagnosis. You keep skirting away from these. You’re lucky at these diagnoses, like ovarian syndrome and the whole scare with whether you would conceive, and now this. It’s just kind of funny. You did not get a diagnosis. Good.

So everyone listening understands and knows, the one-hour glucose test has a very high failure rate, and you don’t actually have gestational diabetes, so it has a very high false positive rate. You did exactly the right thing. The best possible thing you can do is wear that glucose monitor and get a real sense of how your body responds to certain foods and what’s happening with your blood sugar throughout the day. Really, that should just be the standard. We should completely drop the glucose drink.

Yeah, I learned so much from it just tracking my sugars. I do always try to balance blood sugar and prioritize protein, especially after sleeping, so I knew it wasn’t going to be ideal for me. I don’t ever drink soda or really juice or just chug sugar first thing in the morning on an empty stomach, and it made me feel very sick. So yeah, I completely agree with you.

My appointments were going normally. They did treat me well, thankfully, because they knew I was not a conventional patient in their conventional world.

Then it was 41 weeks, and I was kind of feeling the pressure from loved ones about the baby not being here yet and the rhetoric around the longer you’re pregnant and issues arising, even though I knew, I talked to my baby and I felt like everything was right. I did end up agreeing to a membrane sweep at 41 and 4. This was a Tuesday. I say reluctantly because I really didn’t want anything in me, but I was just trying to keep the peace.

Then, against my midwife’s advice, I did go home and have two tablespoons of castor oil that same day. I did start with regular contractions around 4 p.m. I had the membrane sweep at 10, I was 1 to 2 centimeters dilated, had the castor oil, and then started with regular contractions around 4 p.m. This was on a Tuesday. By 5:30 I was having contractions about every 10 minutes. Since the hospital was so far away, I really needed to plan, so I did call them and let them know what was going on. They suggested heading down.

We got there around 7 on that Tuesday. My waters did break on the way there, and they did not stop. I didn’t stop leaking until my baby was born, which I was not expecting. We did have towels in the car, thankfully, so we were prepared, and I was prepared to go in a hotel nearby if they weren’t going to admit me right away. Thankfully, they did admit me right away. I did agree to a check. I was 4 centimeters dilated, 90% effaced, and -3 station, though I did not know at the time what those other numbers meant.

Nor did you need to.

Exactly my word.

Exactly what I was thinking. Nor did you need to. It’s funny to have women talking like this. When you think about all the mammals giving birth, it’s just that we’re so culturally accustomed to reporting the data.

Yeah, being in the nursing field, I’m so used to that.

They confirmed that my waters broke, which I was 100% sure about. I couldn’t believe, at first, I was nervous I wouldn’t know if my waters were broken, and then it was just very, very obvious when it happened, a huge gush of fluid.

So they admitted me. They called Dr. Morosky. He was there the entire laboring process, which was very long, over 45 hours of labor, and I was successfully unmedicated for just over 33 of them. I was using my HypnoBirthing techniques, using the birthing ball, swaying side to side. My mom was there, which was really helpful. At first I didn’t want her there, but I’m so grateful that she made it down and stayed with me the whole time. Just having that woman there who was close to me and made me feel comfortable really made the process easier, because it was very intense.

My contractions were every three minutes, but they did become irregular. I could see on the monitor the other patients’ contractions, and theirs were looking really regular because they were on Pitocin, and mine were long and irregular.

What a horrible thing to have to see. Why were you able to see all the others? That’s such a bad setup.

I actually liked seeing it.

You did?

I think it was the nurse in me.

Okay.

It didn’t have their information or anything like that.

I know it’s not about privacy, but just looking at labor from that perspective and comparing yourself to other women’s contractions, that’s tough.

Yeah. I mean, I knew that I was probably the only one there that was unmedicated. They mentioned the nurses were watching the monitors, and obviously it being different, and of course me having a vaginal breech delivery planned, they were all intrigued, because this isn’t something they experience. It is a teaching hospital.

And a breech labor is going to look a little bit different anyway.

Yeah, right. I think it certainly did.

I felt like I was laboring forever, and I didn’t sleep since Monday night. It was really intense at times, and then it did start to slow down Wednesday night. I wasn’t able to sleep at all during any of it. I did try to stay hydrated and eat, but I really didn’t have much of an appetite. I did kind of hide it because I wasn’t sure. At one point, I did ask them to order me food, and they had to remove the NPO, or do not eat, order. Thankfully, they did so I could order food, which I appreciated, but I just didn’t have much of an appetite, and I knew I needed the energy because I’d been awake for over 24 hours.

Working through the contractions, I was mostly standing or moving around. I could not get comfortable sitting or lying. Anytime they came on, I had to get up and mostly sway side to side. I did get in the shower, and that was soothing. I did agree to the continuous monitor, but it was wireless, so I could move around as much as I wanted, and it was waterproof, so I was able to go in the shower. Also, the nurses were amazing and really supportive. They kind of just let me be, and then if I needed something or wanted something, they would assist.

Did you get an epidural after that 30 hours or so?

Yeah. After the 33 hours, I was slowing down. I did have a check. I wasn’t really dilating further, so I did agree to an epidural. This was at like 1 a.m. on the 13th, so a Thursday, and that was relieving. I was able to get some rest, which was huge. I think I really needed the sleep.

I was really disappointed that I was going to be getting it, because I mostly got it because I felt like I needed the Pitocin, because I wasn’t dilating further. Looking back, I wonder if my contractions were getting so severe, and they were lasting so long, like multiple minutes, and I didn’t think I could handle it any further. Because they were so irregular and I wasn’t dilating further, I felt like I needed the Pitocin. My waters had been broken for over 24 hours, and I was just exhausted. I knew, it being a breech birth, I would have to really push her out right away, so I just felt like I wasn’t going to have the energy to birth her if I kept enduring the contractions. I didn’t think I could do both.

Looking back, I do think maybe when it was that severe, I was at transition and I was possibly closer than I thought. I do think the epidural slowed down things. So I did sleep, which was great. I wanted to hold on the Pitocin until after I got some sleep. I wanted to be rechecked after that to see if I did progress any further, which I really didn’t. Then I agreed to Pitocin. I only had the Pitocin going for about four hours. That’s when I started to be regular enough for them to recheck me, and I was ready to go.

After the epidural, the nurses were so amazing. They helped reposition me in different Spinning Babies positions to help things progress, because I knew I was disappointed about not being able to move around, so I was grateful for that.

I did end up giving birth in the standard position on my back, with my legs up and a nurse holding one leg and then my mom and my husband taking turns holding the other. For the pushing, they did have to coach me on it because I couldn’t feel anything, so they were going by the monitor and telling me when to push.

We did move to the OR for the delivery, which I was agreeable to, just in case things went wrong. It was quite the full room for it being such a rare thing to see. I had nurses and residents and anesthesia and the NICU team.

I really don’t like when they ask vaginally birthing women to birth in an OR. I just think that’s a terrible thing. It’s obviously not conducive for birth. Why did they suggest it, and why did you agree?

Yeah, so they actually wheeled me in my hospital bed, so I wasn’t in a different bed. That was comfortable.

That’s good.

I know a woman who gave birth on an operating table. She wanted to birth her twins naturally and vaginally, and she did, and they had her on an operating table. Things like that are so terrible. That was at Stanford. But anyway, so go on. They said, “Can we just bring you in? We’d feel better. This has gone on a long time, obviously. We’re a step closer.” They kept you in the bed, which I guess is not a huge deal then, right? When you went into that option, did it feel very different to you?

No. It was a little bit colder, but I think I was just warm anyway. They did dim the lights, so they were respectful in that sense. They asked me if I was fine with people being there, because I know they’re learning, and I like learning from patients also. So I totally understood.

Trisha, do you have any comments on that?

This is one of those things that is routine protocol in hospitals. If you have a high-risk birth, which they consider a breech birth or a twin vaginal birth, they will recommend it. They feel more comfortable doing it in the OR because it saves time. If there’s an issue with head entrapment or something goes wrong at the moment of birth, if you are already in the OR, you’re saving five minutes, which sometimes saves a life. Now the real question is: Are you high risk? Is breech birth really high risk? Does it really need to be in the OR? Is twin birth really high risk? Does it really need to be in the OR? The fact that you’re getting a breech birth in a hospital is great. So sometimes we have to accept these things. I’m sure you could have said, “No, I need to stay here. I want to stay here.” If you really felt in that moment that you needed to, you probably would have, and they would have had to agree. But you didn’t. You felt okay about it, right?

It does make me envision if there will ever be a day where they just ask every woman to birth in an operating room because we’re a few minutes closer. That is the trend of the past 60 or 70 years. Whenever they start something for high-risk women alone, like ultrasound, like continuous electronic fetal monitoring, the day comes where they just say, “Let’s just do this with everyone. It’s safer. It’s better.” So it does concern me. It really does, because it’s hard to imagine that’ll ever be the day, but we don’t know that in 20 or 30 years that’s not going to be the norm. Like, “Oh yeah, we used to have women in a separate room, but now we just have them all in an OR, because you never know, and that few minutes can save a life.”

Or maybe we’ll start seeing breech birth be the norm in hospitals, and now we’re doing it enough that we’re doing it very comfortably in a labor and delivery room. That’s my hope. That’s our hope.

I hope so. That is our hope.

Either way, keep going.

So I was push-coached, which is not what I had envisioned. The breathing was the complete opposite of what I had practiced with HypnoBirthing, but I couldn’t feel anything, so I was okay with it. You could see her little bum.

I forgot to mention this disturbing fact. Since my waters broke, I was leaking fluids the entire time. Because she was bum-down, she was having bowel movements through me a majority of my laboring process also. So her bum came out and she went to the bathroom and she peed, and then her legs came out, and they only had to gently do a few maneuvers to help her get out, head out last.

I knew when she came out that she would appear pretty lifeless, being a breech delivery. I was familiar with her Apgar score probably going to be low, so I wasn’t shocked seeing her look kind of lifeless. They did put her up to my abdomen, so I did have a moment, and my husband was able to cut the cord, though I wanted it to be delayed. It wasn’t. The NICU team took her right away because of her Apgar score being 3 at one minute. I knew it would go up right away, and it did. She goes to an 8 by five minutes.

I did listen to one of your recent podcasts, where I learned that kind of like a water birth, because the cord’s connected, even though she’s not moving around, she would have been breathing through her cord. So I wish I knew that then, and I wish I hadn’t had them take her right away, and that they had kept the cord intact for longer, because I do think she would have come around just fine being on me.

I wish they understood that. I wish they understood how important that is, to not sever that cord, especially in a scenario like that. It’s important for every baby, but it’s even more important in a breech birth, in a baby who has a 3 for her Apgar score.

Yeah. That being said, she came around quickly. I sent my husband out there to follow them. We didn’t want her to be alone. They were concerned for her having a broken clavicle and hip dysplasia, so right away they did do imaging, which I guess is fine.

What kind of imaging did they do?

They did ultrasound and X-rays, ultrasound of her hips and then X-rays of her clavicle.

Just to see if it had broken?

Yeah.

I can’t believe there’s not another way to check that. That’s interesting.

I know. I was, yeah.

That seems kind of extreme to me. Trisha, have you heard anything about that?

The only way you can be certain that a bone is broken or not is an X-ray, really. I mean, if it’s severely broken, you can see it, but if they’re unsure and they are suspecting that it happened, then an X-ray would be the method for looking for a broken bone. But yeah, did they really need to confirm that?

Let me ask you this, Trisha. If it had shown a fracture in there, what would they even do about it?

Well, that’s the thing. They don’t do anything about clavicle fractures. They just fix themselves.

So they really didn’t need to do that.

They would probably have given you some guidance on how to hold her for breastfeeding, but you would have figured that out as a mom. If you were holding or nursing her in a certain position and she was always crying, she was in pain because of that. It was probably not necessary.

Kristina, you did an unbelievable job. First of all, the fact that you’re a nurse and that you even pursued all this could not have been easy, because nurses have a lot of knowledge, a lot of reason to be afraid and to be concerned. It’s so touching to us. We’ve spoken to so many nurses, and one of my favorite episodes is our nurses roundtable. I think they have a fascinating insight, and I know it complicates things. Birth is hard enough for any woman, and I think being a nurse can add anxiety more than comfort to such a scenario.

So you overcame that. You overcame a husband and family who were concerned, but obviously they respected you enough to back away, which was great. You reached out to resources. You went through an incredibly long, arduous labor. You really did so well. So the fact that they had to check these things, it’s still an unbelievable story. Of course they had to check. They had a low Apgar. It’s understandable that you kept feeling like, let me not take this too far and not take the utmost care of my baby. That was how you were being advised.

How are you feeling? Were you proud of yourself? Were you like, oh my God, that was…? What did you ultimately feel in the aftermath of it?

Yeah, I was really excited, of course, to meet her when she came out. I thought it looked like I birthed myself. She just looked like a mini me. It was adorable. I was relieved that everything worked out, and they did bring her to me fairly quickly.

I was still in the OR for the placenta delivery. I was told that my cord detached, so they did have to manually take it out, which I couldn’t feel anything for. I really didn’t care at the time. I just went with it. Then they did mention that I was bleeding, so of course I had the Pitocin going still. They gave me some other IV med and something intravaginally to help with the bleeding, to stop the bleeding.

Okay, just a question for Trisha then. If a cord detaches, Trisha and I know that is terribly common, the placenta will still come out on its own, right? They can’t do traction, but the placenta obviously will be birthed by the body regardless. Do you want to comment on that?

Yes. Your placenta would have eventually come out.

But they supported a vaginal birth, but still, like any other American hospital system, they’re still going to have some protocols that we’ll forever wonder about and question. But they supported the unthinkable these days. It’s rare. I didn’t know there was another provider in Connecticut who would support that. Amazingly, you found the person.

Yes. I actually requested all my records and was reviewing my hospital notes prior to this, and they did say that the cord was consistent with a velamentous insertion. So I don’t know if that’s the same thing as the marginal cord insertion, or maybe what that was that was picked up on ultrasound originally.

That explains why your cord broke. Because with a velamentous insertion, the Wharton’s jelly is not covering those vessels, so it’s much more susceptible to breakage. So that does explain why that happened after birth.

Okay. Then I wondered, learning that also, if maybe that was why she was breech. There was probably a reason.

Was her cord particularly short? Do you know?

I don’t know that part.

Sometimes there is a correlation there.

Sometimes with an anterior placenta. My daughter was breech and I had an anterior placenta. But anterior placentas are also so common that the majority of them do not result in a breech baby. But there’s a little argument, maybe more than a little argument, that some say it makes it a little harder for the baby to turn. But honestly, it is truly a variation of normal, and we are always looking for reasons for it. I think once a woman has two breech babies, I definitely get curious. But I had one breech baby, and I don’t really think much about it. I’m not like, why was she breech? I just kind of accept it, like, that was the position she was in for whatever reason that I may never understand.

Apparently my mother was born breech, and I was too. Apparently they said, “Oh, this one’s coming out backwards. No big deal.” That was just what they said when my mother came out. So now it’s this huge deal. It’s just always happened.

Kristina, do you think that your baby was breech from 28 weeks on? Do you think she had always been breech?

Sometimes it would feel like what felt like her really turning in my stomach, and I questioned what position that was, but going back and looking at my ultrasound, I think she probably was just breech the whole time.

Do you wish you would have known sooner, or in the end it didn’t really matter?

No, I don’t think it really mattered in the end. I’m happy with the way things went overall, even though it was a roller coaster. When they brought her to me, she breastfed right away, and it was just so beautiful. We had a beautiful connection right away. So I wouldn’t overall change anything. I think I learned a lot from it.

Would you do anything differently?

Yes. Not letting them cut the cord and take her right away. I would do that differently, at least give it one minute. So if your Apgar score didn’t go up after one minute, then I would say, fine, intervene.

Well, it’s easy to say now, but you said it was a 3. With an Apgar score of 3, that’s a little jarring. I think a lot of women would be like, “Oh my God, yes, please do what you have to do.”

That’s because we don’t hear, “Do what you have to do, but keep the cord intact.” There is—

I know, but I also understand it as a woman.

But that’s what we have to change. We have to change that way of thinking. Keep the cord intact. If you have to give the baby positive pressure ventilation or stimulation, do it with the cord intact. Do not cut that cord. Do not separate them. That is not helping.

Yeah, I understand that. I do. But I wish they could have done it on me.

That needs to become the norm. Do it next to the mother, on the mother, anywhere where the cord is still intact.

You overcame very difficult odds, even in the case of a perfectly positioned baby, just because your labor was so long. You really did. And to have your loved ones not 100% on board would be difficult as well. How did they feel after? Were they like, “Oh my gosh, you were right”? Or did they say, “Oh my gosh, was that necessary? Did we have to do this?” What did they think after you did all this?

I think they were just so happy that it was over with and mom and baby were healthy and here. They were supportive, but I know that they were just scared because of what they were told.

Can you tell us a little bit about this doctor? Is he an older doctor who has just always done vaginal breech, or is he a young doctor who’s trying to be progressive and experienced?

I think he’s middle-aged, right in the middle.

Is he the go-to guy at the hospital for breech? Does he do these often, or is this a rare thing for him?

I think it’s still pretty rare for him, but he’s definitely the go-to guy. Actually, a resident helped deliver my daughter. There are just so few breech first pregnancies that are going to go this far, and for actually getting a vaginal breech birth, that’s just so far and few.

That resident was very lucky that you were willing to have him or her there, because this is how we make change. If nobody’s teaching the next generation, if nobody’s teaching the students how to do this, and they’re not seeing it, they’re never going to trust it.

I feel the need to say something about this as well, because that is all true, and I could also see that you were a nurse with a lot of respect for colleagues who said, let me allow them to do this. But I typically say to women, you don’t owe it to anybody. You have to protect your birth space, and you don’t owe it to them, because they’re not getting, in my opinion, a good enough education that they have to come to the field to see a normal, well-positioned, head-down baby they don’t even see in their training. Typically they have to see it through us.

So I feel like women don’t have to take one for the team. You did take one for the team. That served them more than it served you. In my own first birth, I remember the midwives saying, “Can we have a student there?” and I said, “I really don’t know how I feel about that. I don’t think so.” But then I met this young student who I just thought was the most beautiful person, and I was like, “Oh yes, I’d love to have her.” She was a dream, and I’m grateful that this new midwife attended my birth, had this beautiful smile, looking lovingly into my eyes the whole time. She was a godsend.

So it’s not a hard and fast rule I have, but I feel very strongly that women should choose who’s there. You were so magnanimous in your approach to say, “I figured, yes, what the heck, let them learn,” but I don’t want everyone listening thinking they have to take one for the team either. You have a unique background that brought you toward that way of thinking. It’s already hard enough for women to birth around strangers, but now strangers who don’t have a lot of experience. A lot of them are getting their episiotomy sewn up by someone who’s brand new, or someone’s third C-section rather than the trained surgeon in the room.

Yeah, that’s a big deal. I think I just had my strong feelings about some things, but then I was okay with others based on my background, and I agree women should definitely do what their intuition says.

The beautiful thing is, some women are very comfortable with that, and some women are very uncomfortable with that, and that’s fine. Women do need to be able to know that about themselves and make that choice. No woman should have that forced upon them, that’s for damn sure.

Absolutely.

So what’s your final message to women after all that you’ve experienced and learned?

Listen to your intuition. If you feel strongly about a certain way, pursue that further. I just wanted to share my story, since it was kind of unique, and I want people to know it’s okay to go against or question what your provider says and get a second opinion or a second provider. So thank you guys. I wouldn’t have had this story without you.

Well, we are very happy to hear it and share it. So thank you. Bye.

Thank you for joining us at the Down To Birth Show. You can reach us @downtobirthshow on Instagram or email us at Contact@DownToBirthShow.com. All of Cynthia’s classes and Trisha’s breastfeeding services are offered live online, serving women and couples everywhere. Please remember this information is made available to you for educational and informational purposes only. It is in no way a substitute for medical advice. For our full disclaimer visit downtobirthshow.com/disclaimer. Thanks for tuning in, and as always, hear everyone and listen to yourself.