#375 | Making Sense of Everyday Toxin Exposure with Kale Blossom

In today’s episode, we talk with Carly and Rachel of Kale Blossom about environmental toxins, what matters when it comes to everyday exposure, and how mothers can make thoughtful changes without getting pulled into fear-based messaging.

The conversation around “low-tox living” can quickly become overwhelming, especially during pregnancy and early motherhood, when concern for your baby is understandably high. We wanted to cut through the noise and ask a more useful question: where does reducing exposure meaningfully matter, and where are women being sold anxiety?

We talk about some of the highest-impact places to focus, including fragrance, household cleaning products, skincare, indoor air quality, plastics, and common materials in the home. We also discuss realistic, budget-conscious swaps, the role of overall health in supporting the body’s natural detoxification processes, and why perfection is neither possible nor necessary.

This is a practical conversation about relative risk, informed decision-making, and reducing toxic burden in a way that feels sustainable rather than stressful.

#221 | Understanding Fetal-Maternal Microchimerism with Rachel Marynowski of @Kale.Blossom

Kale Blossom

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Transcript

I'm Cynthia Overgard, birth educator, advocate for informed consent, and postpartum support specialist. And I'm Trisha Ludwig, certified nurse midwife and international board certified lactation consultant. And this is the Down To Birth Show. Childbirth is something we're made to do. But how do we have our safest and most satisfying experience in today's medical culture? Let's dispel the myths and get down to birth.

So glad to be here. We are in this women's space, because it's our passion, and great to know you guys and have been on your podcast before. I'm Rachel. I'm a naturopathic physician by training, also mom — my most important job. I'm Carly. I'm a chiropractor, and I've been practicing functional medicine also for over 15 years. Rachel and I met in medical school, and very long story short, we are neighbors. We've been in practice together, and of course we started Kale Blossom in 2019, and it's grown since we first spoke to you guys about two and a half years ago, back in episode number 221, when we talked about the fascinating topic of maternal fetal microchimerism, which is so cool. 

So if anybody has not listened to that episode, you really should go back and listen to episode number 221, because that is the concept that the cells from the baby get into the mother during pregnancy, and those cells — some amount of cellular material from the baby — live with, on, in the mother forever and ever and ever. And to me, this sort of explains partly why mothers and babies have such a psychic connection. A mother can feel something that might be happening to her child even when they're on the other side of the world. So that's a great episode, and we're super happy to have you guys back today to talk about another very important topic that is on everybody's mind and is really overwhelming. We're hoping that you can break it down and make it nice and easy for us — and that is the topic of how we can take the homes that we live in and turn them into something a little bit less toxic, because toxins are everywhere around us, and everybody wants to be a little more low tox. But it seems like everywhere you turn you're getting contradictory advice, or it's just overwhelming. It's just too much. It's like, how can I wear the right clothes, eat the right food, sleep the right way, breathe the right air? So we're hoping you ladies can put us on the right track today.

Thank you. Yes. And I think the first thing to kind of clear the air is nobody can live 100% toxin free. I think that's the most important thing to remember, because what we see is it does become overwhelming, and the stress of that alone is worse than the toxins that you're breathing in and surrounded by day in and day out. So I think that's the most important thing to remember. There is no perfection in living a low tox life. That's why we like to say low tox and not non tox, because we think there's an important distinction there. And when you look at the stats at play, there are over 80,000 chemicals currently in the market, in your everyday standard products sold on a store shelf — from Windex to deodorant to the sheets on your bed to baby gear products, anything and everything in between. And the understanding is that even if the EPA took it seriously, we would never see in our lifetime them be able to go through and ban the number of substances that need to be banned and not included in products. Now, the EU and European countries do a little bit better than us. They've already banned a handful that the US still uses. But even those countries — it's just that we are way underwater in terms of chemical overload.

I'd love to make a comment about the EU. I remember attending a lecture a few years ago — what was the woman's name, phenomenal woman, her voice — oh, Patty Wood, I believe. And I think she's been in some documentaries. She's done incredible work. You leave a workshop with her, you leave a lecture of hers, and you're just like — you're scared of everything in your house. But she's so knowledgeable. And I remember her saying that the EU banned, at the time, 11,000 chemicals to our 11. And the reason I find that so interesting — and it's tangential to this topic, but I do think it really helps to get the mindset around it that Americans need to have — is that in the European Union, the government is responsible for paying for health care. So they have great incentive in every country over there to keep their citizens healthy, because when they aren't healthy, the government has to foot the bill for their care. So they invest a lot more in preventive measures, and doctors invest a lot more in preventive measures. The doctors who are on salary get bonuses when a percentage of their patients quit smoking. It's just a completely different system. And here, unfortunately, the economy thrives when we are either testing healthy people — look at what we're doing to healthy pregnant women all the time — or treating sick people, and there's so much less incentive. And the takeaway that I think about and tell people is that what this primarily means is we just have to take more responsibility for our health care here. We can't count on our government or anyone else to do it for us. So "FDA approved" means very little to me.

In fact, I woke up thinking about a law that was passed — I think it was in 1999 — and it had Senator Lieberman and Senator McCain, so Democrat, Republican, they were all behind it. And that was the year that they made it illegal for natural companies to claim that they can heal or benefit, really, anyone. So now it's suddenly illegal for a natural company to even say that they can really do anything of substance. So if you go to Whole Foods and say, hey, do you have some natural remedy to help me get rid of my cold, they'll get nervous and say, well, we're not allowed to say that this will treat your cold. They're all trained to not even dare, because of a law that's censoring speech and language. So it's just a really wacky place to live when it comes to seeking a natural lifestyle.

It really is. And that is our passion from the ground up — women's health and preventive health care, which is what functional medicine is. We're looking at the functionality of the body and anything that could potentially interfere with that, whether that's hormone imbalance or nutrient depletion or toxins. When we were in school 25 years ago, living low tox wasn't even as big on the radar as it is now, but we did have a couple of professors. I remember one at the time who was talking about parabens and how awful they were — and I'm thinking, he was a grumpy guy, but smart — and I'm like, how does he even know about parabens? And now, years later, he was brilliant. We take environmental medicine courses in medical school. That's what our kind of alternative medicine requires. And speaking of prevention, it should be a part of our health care system. We have to know about environmental medicine and toxins in our everyday world. Whether it's natural remedies or allopathic remedies, we can't heal someone if they're super toxic. It's just not possible, and there's only so much our human bodies can take in.

And just to give you a little perspective on the timeline on that — it was around 1976 that they passed an act that required the EPA to oversee more toxins, or to look at them. Well, what that also meant is that over 60,000 toxins were grandfathered past that EPA oversight, so you already have 60,000-plus toxins 50 years ago. Fast forward — I think it was around 2011, long time after that — another act was passed for more oversight, but again, grandfathered in. And now they're trying to look at the most toxic of toxic chemicals. But where are the human studies? We're never going to have those. And then, of course, the cumulative effect — there's just very little oversight, and we already have this pool of toxins that we're swimming in. It's just really difficult to backtrack on what has already been done.

I think that's what we should focus on today — talking about how we can take that pool of toxic soup that we basically live in, that you cannot avoid because we live on this planet, we live in this country, we live in this world, and what can we do that's kind of practical on a day-to-day basis to reduce our toxic load. Because we know that the body is really good at dealing with this — we have a liver for a reason, and we can trust our liver. We don't have to live in paranoia. We don't have to be afraid of everything that comes across our plate, of everything that we breathe, of everything that we touch. Our body is meant to detox. And one of the best possible things we can do to help support that detox system is to move our body, and we know we do a lot less of that than we should. So if you are afraid of all these things, rather than living in that state of anxiety and fear about everything you eat, touch, breathe, or are exposed to — move your body more. But there are some things that are really harmful that are still floating around all of us all the time. So there are definitely some things that we can do to really reduce that toxic burden on our body. And you guys are the experts in this. So let's talk about it, especially when we're talking about women who are prepping for childbirth, prepping to become pregnant, have a new baby in the home, or are breastfeeding.

We like to, lightheartedly, blame the Kardashians — especially when it comes to toxins and women — because we think they started this makeup, skincare, Ulta, Sephora craze. It's wild. We both have daughters, and I think you guys do too, and it's like we're navigating that. For women especially, there are studies showing that we potentially — because we lather ourselves with potions and lotions and perfume and makeup — cover ourselves with about 186 different chemicals every single day. So start there. We always say, start in your own home with the things that you use every day. You don't have to overnight get rid of everything. Most people can't afford that. Most people can't take in the capacity of having to manage that. But it's those common exposures — like, again, the Windex. There are tons of companies coming out with great cleaning products, great toothpaste, better quality makeups, deodorants, cleaning products. Cleaning products are a huge one. But we always say — just like what you said, and I'm so glad you mentioned that, Trisha — it always goes back to basics. And this is natural medicine 101: sleep, hydrate, good foods, move your body, outside for fresh air, sunshine, connect with your loved ones, sense of purpose, have a community. Those are healing, and those help your body heal and detoxify like we need to, because our bodies are resilient. We just have to give them the basics of what they need.

Those are all the hard things that people are like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I hear it. But really, how am I supposed to sleep nine hours a night? How am I supposed to exercise for an hour a day? How am I supposed to eat all the right foods? I'm with you on that — those are always the fundamentals. You must do those things. Those will fix you better than anything else you're going to do to detoxify your life. But those take a lot of effort, and everybody wants the easy fixes. So there are some easy fixes. What's wrong with Windex, by the way? I don't use it, but — because it's blue? Is it bad just because of the color?

Good color dye, definitely. It's also got a perfume. It's got about three other chemicals, including one that they don't even have to put on the label, that has been connected to reproductive harm and infertility. And they sell about 21 million bottles of glass cleaner every year — they have half the market share. So it's something simple like that. If you are planning to have a baby or thinking that you might, ditch the Windex and buy a vinegar-based or a lower tox cleaning product. And that's one check mark. Easy to do.

So easy, and easier every year. I gave that up after the first workshop I attended 20 years ago. And an easy approach to that is — if it says it's poisonous on the bottle, if drinking it would kill you, touching it is the first little tiny one percent toward killing you. Enough of it would make you sick. Essentially none of it won't ever harm you — you'll detox from it. But that's the scale. And if women sometimes say, well, I'm not inhaling it — if you can smell it, it's definitely in your lungs. You brought it into your body. We are going to live a normal life, but it is so easy to replace these things, and we don't have to use literally poisonous things in the home.

So can you give us like three substitutes? People talk about baking soda, vinegar, borax instead of laundry detergent. I know there are some really simple things that you can just swap out that are not expensive for replacing all the cleaning products you have in your home. What would you recommend?

Those are actually three great options, because again, they are very financially doable things that you can make yourself. But there are a lot of great brands out there now too. We talk about Truly Free, Branch Basics — there are so many now that you can have a good quality cleaning product and not have to sacrifice how it functions and works in your home. So if you're not one of those DIY or Pinterest moms who wants to make all your cleaning products, thankfully Target, Walmart, most grocery stores carry a selection of better quality products. And it's always about reading the label, no matter what it is — if you're putting it on your body, in your body, or bringing it into your home. Because the other tricky thing is the marketing now will say things like "eco friendly" or "green force" or something like that, and they can slap on any number of those labels. If you turn it around and look at the ingredient list and there's anything you can't pronounce, or more than like four or five ingredients, it's probably not something that you want to bring into your home. And Carly and I invented an app — our low tox app. It's called Nook. The reason we invented it is we've hand-chosen over 1,000 products — the most common everyday things that people use in their household. And we have the ability to scan the label, front or back of the product, or you can search the name, and it'll tell you everything you need to know about the individual ingredient. Like, this may cause respiratory harm, this may cause an impact on fertility. So it tells you why, it teaches you, and then gives you an easy brand if you're looking to swap. We did this because we heard so many patients — especially women in our practice — saying the same thing: it's too overwhelming to try to live low tox. I'm busy. I have soccer, baseball, kids, my own life.

For me, I just keep it really simple. In cleaning my house, I literally just use baking soda and vinegar and water. And I actually don't clean that much. I do have a house cleaner who comes two times a month. And I kind of just let her go those two days of the month and clean however she wants to clean — I try to have her not use bleach or Windex, I give her a few things, but I kind of let it go. And then I open all the windows and just air out the house. Even in the winter, I will open the windows and just air out the house for a little while. That helps things really stay clean over the entire two weeks. And then I just use really simple things to clean the counters, clean the toilets, here and there as needed. And I never buy cleaning products. The only cleaning products I ever buy are laundry detergent and dish soap for the dishwasher. That's it. Those three things.

Those also have natural options.

Totally natural. The main thing to also avoid — and an easy thing to avoid — is fragrance. Right off the bat. That's a category, that's an umbrella catch-all that has thousands and thousands of untested and tested chemicals in it, and they get away with murder. But we don't need fragrance. And it's funny — when you get accustomed to not having synthetic fragrance, you have a zero tolerance for it.

That's actually the first thing — like Rachel mentioned, we have daughters. They're 12. They're discovering body care products and makeup. That is the very first thing I started educating my daughter about: fragrance. Because like you said, it is like a pool of chemicals. There can be hundreds and hundreds of different chemicals and toxins under that label of fragrance or perfume, and they call it a million different things. So that is another really great place to start — reading a label and looking for fragrance.

I'm right there with you on that. I do not let my daughters wear perfume. I have one thing of perfume that I've had for about 10 years, and I will occasionally wear it — maybe clean, maybe not, but it's not one of the really bad ones. I wear it very, very rarely, and I always spray it far away and then just sort of walk through it, so you just get a little subtle hint of it. But I have literally not hired child care providers because they show up to my house with perfume. So I think that is a huge thing for mothers. If somebody who's caring for your baby, or you yourself, are wearing perfume on your clothes and then holding your baby up against that — if you just didn't do that, you would improve their health for their life by many, many fold. So I am with you. Get rid of all the fragrances. No perfumes. Anything that smells strong is definitely bad for you, unless it's essential oil.

And like you said, it's all about balance. So on those rare occasions where you're doing something fancy or celebrating, it's about lessening the load where you can — using fragrance sparingly, using better quality cleaning products, switching out things that touch your skin, like your pajamas, your sheets, your underwear. Oh my goodness, underwear. Let's talk about toxins and disrupting fertility — men's and women's underwear.

What's the problem? I know the body can't breathe, I know it's not healthy to wear polyester underwear. But is there something about chemicals? What's the link to infertility?

Yeah, so a lot of these are basically plastic. You're wearing plastic if it's not cotton — or linen. So the 100% natural fabrics, things you might find in nature: cotton and linen. But essentially, you're wearing plastic. I don't know if you've seen the headlines — their leggings are plastic. You are wearing plastic. Then you go exercise, you sweat, your pores open, you are absorbing plastic. And think about that in terms of the underwear that you're wearing against a very sensitive part of the body. And then we relate that to fertility. The plastic is problematic, and it's something a lot of women don't think about. Even yeast infections — irritation in that area — it makes a huge difference.

Actually a very common cause of recurring yeast infections. The first thing I tell women if they have that is, we've got to change your underwear, or go underwear-free for a while. That's okay too.

And every time our bodies — well, now everybody's body temperature is lowering because I think we're becoming less resilient overall, but we're supposed to be like a steamy 97, 98 degrees. So every time that material hits heat, it off-gasses for the life of that product. Different but similar: vinyl shower curtains. You know the smell when you get a brand new one — it's very strong. That's the PVC, that's the plastic material. Because plastic in and of itself — and this is similar for fabrics too — is actually hard. It's not a super flexible material, so they have to add all these chemicals to make it more flexible. Same thing with water bottles: the more flexible they are, the more toxic they potentially are. So for the lifespan of a plastic shower curtain liner, every time it gets hot and moist, it will liberate toxins. And with a shower liner, you're not wearing it, but you're literally breathing it in the bathroom, which is usually a closed, small space.

So how do we swap out a plastic shower liner?

Look for PVC-free if you're going to do a more plastic shower curtain — that's going to be a better option. And you can find them for about $9.99 at Walmart, so it's not one of those that has to be super expensive. But if we had our preference, we'd go with more like an organic cotton or linen. Those are looking closer to $60 or $75, but you're going to be reusing it, you can wash it, they last a lot longer, they look a lot better, and they are much better on the body for sure. Even bamboo — which is another one you've probably heard about. Okay, so bamboo: there's a reason it's used to build things like homes. It is a wood. It is hardy. It is strong. But in order to get that hardwood to a soft, buttery fabric, it is so chemicalized — it is bathed in chemical over chemical over chemical. And the problem is these companies basically try to pretend that whole middle manufacturing process doesn't happen. So then at the end, they come in and may add something that allows them to say, oh, it's natural, because it's from bamboo. We used to think bamboo was great too, and now we really try not to buy it.

This is where it gets very challenging, because we think we're doing the right thing by buying cotton, 100% natural cotton. It's really hard to find everything in organic cotton — especially, like, you can't work out in organic cotton leggings. That just isn't a thing. So then you're just down to cotton. But then how cotton is manufactured is problematic too. So what are we supposed to do? And really — if you wash these products, like let's just take the bamboo sheets for example — if you wash them and wash them and wash them, are they still leaching chemicals after years of use, months of washing?

They can absolutely, but for the lifetime of any material that's ever been potentially exposed and bathed in chemicals, there's going to be a residual.

The bedroom and the bed is a good place to maybe start. We already talked about definitely eliminating fragrances — that's just a given. But then the next place you might want to focus on would be your bed and bedroom, because you spend a third of your life in there. So maybe can you talk about how to have a low tox bedroom? What does that mean? Do you eliminate rugs? What kind of pillows would you use? We just spoke a little bit about bedding, mattresses — and candles. Some candles — oh my gosh. Fragrance: out, gone.

There are some good candle companies out there, yes. Like a beeswax candle, absolutely. And I think, like you said about the bedroom — another layer is, because you do spend a lot of time there, air purification can be really, really helpful as well, just because you are in there for so long and it can be a confined space. But again, just starting with the basics, like the bedding, the mattresses — if you can find, or if you don't want to purchase a new mattress, find a good quality organic cotton encasement for your mattress so that you're not off-gassing the materials from the mattress. There are ways to do it without having to go overboard or be really stressed about it.

So let's talk about skincare and makeup, then, because this is a big thing that people do not want to give up. They really like their skincare routines. They really value their makeup. But this is obviously being applied directly to our faces, skin, body — which is an organ. So what should we avoid with skincare? What should we choose? And what do you guys use?

Thinking about that a little further — where are we putting our skincare? We're putting things on our neck, on our eyes. We're wearing deodorant and putting it under our arms, where there — so that's a really important thing to think about. It's not just the product itself, but where it's being absorbed. There are so many great brands now. Maybe 10, 20 years ago the low tox makeup market wasn't that great, wasn't as wearable as it is now. But there are plenty of good quality options that your daughters will like. Plenty of makeup and skincare options out there.

And again, Target sells them. Even Walmart is getting better. Even Sephora is trying — they have a select few. Ulta too. And what we'd really love to get back to is this whole notion that society doesn't want women to age. They want us to be wrinkle-free and beautiful forever.

I was just about to talk about this. Trisha teases me on the podcast, so everyone listening probably knows this, but I hardly use anything. I've never colored my hair. It doesn't bother me to just not participate. And it's funny — this is what I get teased for, but I don't use any creams at all. I just don't put stuff on my face. I just take a shower every morning. I don't put a lot of stuff on me or in me. So for makeup, I'm very careful — I'll use a lip gloss, eye makeup is fun. And I'm not big on packing stuff around my face, because even if it might make me look a little younger — and I'm not sure that it does make women look younger — I'm not interested in the time, the product, the stuff going on me. And I see with my daughter and her friends — my daughter went to a makeup store locally with her adorable little friend. I think they were like 14 at the time, and her friend came out and had a bag, and I said, oh, did you treat yourself to something? And she said she bought foundation. And I was like — she's this young child with flawless skin, and she's buying foundation. So we don't need to participate. Makeup should be fun, but I hope that women don't approach it with the mindset of going from unattractive to attractive. I hope we can just view it as something to participate in because it's fun. We are attractive enough. We don't have to change our appearance to be accepted by society, and we should be very judicious about the things we're using. I love that you took the conversation there, because I think that's where the core of it is. And it's not that it's right to not use creams — I'm sure that's not the right thing for most people. But there are healthy options. We don't need to have 45 different products to begin with, and to be hunting for the safest ones. We can just let some of that go. Is that an extreme position, what I just said?

Not at all, and that's what we work so hard to teach our daughters too — not to look to Hollywood and media to define what it means to be pretty. I think that's a perfect way to think about it.

We want to teach authenticity too. Don't judge a book by its cover, and how beautiful you are is really how your heart is, not your outside appearance. I think one of the times I was most offended — on one of our Instagram posts, people say some mean things, and we've made a policy we don't engage, we don't fight back, we just either block them or move on — but someone said that we do Botox.

Someone said that to us once, same thing. They said something like lip fillers or something. And we were like, absolutely not. No judgment if you want to do that, that's fine. But we know that is very, very toxic. We have seen the women that have side effects. And no, we would never be preaching from a pedestal about how toxic beauty care items are and getting Botox.

I know. It was so frustrating to have to read that about yourself. I did have another comment I wanted to make about this, if you'll give me a second to think about it.

Of course. Cynthia, you're beautiful without cream — thank you. What's really helped me very much is, I don't know when I successfully formed this belief, but it's really been serving me: I want very much to look healthy. When I keep the focus on looking healthy — I want my teeth to be in great condition, I want my skin to be healthy, I care very much about whether my hair looks healthy and shiny and well — I do want to look well. But the whole perspective shifts to: do my eyes look bright or do they look cloudy? I want to look well. And I've learned to equate that with my best level of attractiveness. And that's how I operate, and it really helps me. It's not like I talk myself into, well, it's okay, I'll settle for this. I really just think: do I look healthy? Do I look rested? Do I look like I take care of myself? That's the end of the story, and I let it go, because the one law of the universe is change. And if we spend our lives trying to chase how we looked at 30, we would all suffer immensely the rest of our lives — when we don't need to. We can just focus on looking well, and especially feeling well. That has really, really helped me now that I'm in my 50s. You have to adapt to what your paradigm will be.

And so many women suffer. So many of them are so lovely already — they're so wonderfully lovely and beautiful, and they just don't see it at all, which is such a shame. And that's just the work of everyone around them that got that message in there. Like the women in my postpartum group — they all look so beautiful to me. They truly look beautiful to me, not just because they are beautiful on the inside. They actually look beautiful to me. And sometimes they all get into a conversation about how terrible they feel about how they look, and I just sit there like, oh God, they don't see it. But one day they'll look back at photos of them holding their babies, and then they'll see how beautiful they were. But it's going to take all those years before they can see it and appreciate it.

Very well said. That's so true.

We really just want to wake up and look our best self every day. And you look your best self every day if you're taking good care of your body — especially if you're taking good care of your liver. Because when you have a good night's sleep and your liver does its job, you wake up and you don't feel that you need the makeup so much, because your face is already bright when you wake up. You already look rested. Your eyes aren't puffy.

Trisha, you get like 10 hours — you look fabulous. I'm sure some of us are not getting 10 hours of sleep every night. Trisha is a master of sleep. I told her I think of her every night because I'm like, well, she's been asleep for three hours already. I'm behind the eight ball again.

The secret to good sleep — just so you know, and this is not realistic for most of the women listening to this podcast, because they're new mothers with babies, and I was not a good sleeper when I had babies, I was exhausted for 10, 12, 15 years, which is actually why I prioritize sleep so much now, because I literally still feel like I'm making up for that lack of sleep during those years. I finally think I'm coming out of it. I finally feel like I'm not tired anymore. But what makes good sleep is going to bed at the same time every night. 98% of the nights, you know — there are definitely nights when I'm not going to bed on time because I'm going out and having a good time, and I'm not worried about it. But most nights I'm going to bed within 30 minutes of the same time every night, and waking up at the same time, and sleeping with the window open. It makes a huge difference — low temperature in the bedroom and fresh air. And blue light and all that stuff I'm pretty good about, like no phone in the bed and all that helps as well. But back to the point of you just wanting to wake up and feel like your best self — sleep and taking care of your liver is how you do that.

Now, a little bit of makeup and skincare — people are not going to give that up. Nobody's going to walk around with no makeup and no skincare. But you really don't need a lot. Keep it really minimal. And there are a lot of great products out there, as you guys said. But it is hard for people to determine which ones are actually okay for you, and which ones are still just sort of greenwashed, or say they're organic, which means nothing in skincare. We're big fans of the company Primally Pure, because they are truly making amazing, delicious-smelling, really healthy, really clean, and actually super effective skincare. I love their stuff. I got rid of everything I was using before — which wasn't actually very much — and really I'm only using Primally Pure now. But also, I believe there's an app my daughter's used called Yuka. Do you guys have skincare products on your Nook app too?

Yeah. Yuka is getting paid by companies to promote different products, so they've kind of lost integrity.

Good to know. Our app does have skincare, makeup, and beauty care products that you can find. We absolutely agree with you — Primally Pure. We both love it. We think it's a wonderful brand, great integrity. And the sleep thing is funny, because Carly and I — it is our non-negotiable across the board. You could give us any wonderful botanicals, supplement, IV nutrient drip, anti-aging whatever — sleep, hands down, is what we choose over and over and over again. Everything. If there's one thing anyone can work on if they have poor sleep, start there, 100% of the time.

And just for the moms out there listening, they need to know that their bodies during the postpartum period are designed to tolerate that interrupted sleep. So I don't want them thinking, okay, nice that you guys are here talking about great sleep and not waking up a single time in the night and waking up super refreshed — like, that's not my reality. Your body is really designed to tolerate that for a period of time when you're postpartum. But it can go on too long. It really can. Postpartum depletion is a very, very real thing, especially for these mothers who are having babies back to back — 12 months in between babies, and breastfeeding for a year, and sleep deprivation for three years in a row. Your body does take a hit from that, and you do need to start figuring out how to prioritize getting good sleep. And for most people, it is just going to bed earlier.

So many moms are still staying up until 11, 11:30, even midnight, because it's the only downtime they get without something to do, without children to take care of. But you've just got to give that up and go to bed on the earlier side. Mothers need to be going to bed at 8, 8:30, 9pm with their children.

Absolutely agree. There's a reason you can go longer without food and water than you can without sleep. We always go back to sleep, sleep, sleep, for sure.

And the postpartum chapter — even pregnancy and postpartum — it's such a beautiful, special, and also fragile window. Not that women are fragile, and they are way over-fragilized in our medical system, just in terms of they are getting less sleep and they are exhausted, and they are maybe not able to make nice meals and be super nourished, and they're breastfeeding so they're giving out their nutrient bank accounts all day long. So that's the window where we'd say, okay, maybe this is where we actually need to acknowledge that all of this stuff is going to be a little bit imbalanced right now, because that's the life I'm living. Maybe when I go to the store to replace my Windex, I'm going to buy a cleaner window cleaner. So that's one less thing — one easy swap that's going to be less of a load on my body right now, that's in a little bit of a depleted, fragile state.

We want to counter perfectionism, because when we are perfectionist-driven, we just say, forget it, I can't deal with this, it's too much. When I was raising my children, I consciously made one change per year. Like there was the year my son was an infant, and I'm still doing it to this very day — the year I started making homemade almond milk rather than buying store-bought nut milks. I make my own homemade almond milk, homemade cashew milk. That's what we do in our family. And even my homemade delicious pudding recipe is made first with my homemade almond milk, and I buy my almonds from a farm in California. So that was a big deal that year, to source the almonds I wanted to buy — they weren't irradiated, because you have to get raw almonds, and in our country our genius government says first irradiate them, and whatever you're doing with them, so anyway. I just did one thing a year. Everyone got an organic mattress one year — okay, that was one big change, and I didn't drive myself crazy. The year that I changed all the cleaning products and said this is what we're going to clean with — that was enough. Because I can be a professional perfectionist and say, forget it, I'm not dealing with this.

I also want to remind women who are listening to all of this conversation that they are so much younger than they realize. And if they feel exhausted and depleted and out of shape and drained — let's say in their late 30s, because they've had their few children — they can feel 1,000 times better 10 years from now. You have time. You have a lot of time. Go through your postpartum period. You have to be in this role of young mother right now, and it will come with being depleted. It will come with not having much time or freedom to exercise to the extent that you might want. But make it your life intention to take care of yourself, and don't worry that this chapter is very difficult, because there are so many chapters ahead, and more freedom comes with every single one henceforth. And I think they just don't see it when they're young.

Beautifully said. Agree. I mean, we are all living in the age of that. Carly, you still have young children, right?

I am, yeah. I'm in the expanding — coming from someone whose youngest is 10, you see you just get more and more time for yourself. I honestly look back and feel better in many ways than I did even before I had kids, because you just learn more, you understand more. Having kids teaches you a lot, and just being more intentional about your health and appreciating it — and again, just those small little things that you can do for yourself daily, it adds up. And then you get a little more time and it's easier to do.

That's also part of the intention — that you can design your own life. When we're young, we have to work so, so hard. I have a mom in my postpartum group who reminded us yesterday that her husband works seven days a week, and my heart is always just aching for these couples, because they're young, they don't have their money yet, they haven't reached the peak of their careers yet, they haven't saved much of their money yet. It's so hard when you start out. But as you get older and you start to meet those goals, you then can bring freedom into your lifestyle, as both of you have done. And how much nicer does it feel to say — it's not about the maximum dollar. You could work 10 times harder and make more money, but is that really the goal? Or is it to have a life where you're as happy on a Monday as you are on a Friday? To me, that's an important goal.

Yes, a huge life lesson. Happiness is far more important — just having that more relaxed lifestyle — than working hard for the dollar and the external things. And on that note, I had my twins when I was in my early 40s, and this is why I'm always super supportive of women who do want to have babies later in life. I think if you are healthy and God puts it on your heart to have more babies — I feel like I recovered better from the twins in my 40s than I did from my first couple of babies, because I knew I had to prioritize the things that were within my control. Like sleep — even though I went two years without great sleep recently, with both twins waking up and nursing. But knowing what I needed to prioritize, taking things off my plate, making sure I'm in bed when everybody else is in bed, not staying up late scrolling, making sure that I'm meal prepping ahead so that I have leftovers and I'm eating well throughout the week. It really, really makes a difference.

And I'd add to that knowing your limits and setting your boundaries with people — with social things, and what you say yes to and what you say no to. So much comes with age. We just learn so much more about ourselves in these decades after the typical childbearing years of mid-20s to mid-30s. So I completely agree with what all of you said about it just getting so much easier. And we really do have time to get ourselves on track and take good care of ourselves in these years in midlife — that we don't necessarily feel we can do when we have young children and babies. You don't need to do it all right then. Just a little bit. Like Cynthia said, that was such a good point — just one thing a year. Just do one thing. Your towels one year, your kitchen stuff one year. Clothing seems impossible, but we'll figure out how to do something there. Just spend more time naked.

But we do have a few questions that came in from our community, because we have many shared followers and people were very excited that we were going to be interviewing you guys today. So we do have to take a few minutes to ask a few questions. We typically do these sort of quickie style, because we know we could just go into more and more side conversations about everything we talk about. But we're going to give you a few questions that you guys can just try to answer rapid-fire style. Sound good?

Love it. Love these ladies.

Oh, thank you.

Okay, so here we go. What's a good quick alternative to using a microwave?

Is there one? Just throw it out? A toaster oven. I eat a lot of food at room temperature — I know that doesn't go over well for some people — or warm it up on the stovetop or in the oven.

Sandals for kids and toddlers that aren't 100% plastic, like Crocs.

Yes. So Crocs — we just did a post on this, just talking about getting that information out there — they are potentially toxic. Every time that hot, sweaty little foot steps on the plastic, it liberates chemicals that are absorbed through the skin of the foot, which is very absorptive. So we have hand-chosen, we've gone through and found eight to ten children's brands. The post came out mid-May, so go check it out.

Perfect. What do you think about red light therapy for perineal tears?

Love it. Yes, love it. My own personal story — I had four home births, and then I had a medically necessary C-section with the twins. And my C-section scar healed so well because I used red light religiously. So many women talk about the C-section shelf — the tissue just doesn't heal well. I don't have that, and I really credit it to red light.

Fabulous. Is handling receipts really that bad?

If you don't have to, don't take it. Yes, they are toxic. The dyes are toxic. BPA.

Yeah. I'm always at the grocery store — no, thank you. Nope. Don't need a receipt. No thanks. Don't even try to give it to me.

I want to do a parasite cleanse so badly. Do I really have to wait until I'm done breastfeeding?

Yes. Anything that's going to mobilize toxins — you don't want to drive those toxins toward the baby. So we always recommend any kind of detox to wait. Now, with that said, if there's an active infection that is significant, that would require treatment. But the way parasite cleanses are trending, we actually don't love them as a blanket rule for everyone, because it can be very depleting, especially for this group of moms who are already depleted. So it's tricky territory. But yeah, generally no.

How often do you recommend pediatric visits from birth in the first year of life?

We do agree that wellness visits go along with the vaccination schedule, which we do believe is too aggressive. So I do think personally that it's good to have another set of eyes. Moms are smart — I think if we learned anything from our almost 20 years of practice, we learn more from moms than we did in medical school, because moms research and they're savvy. But it's always good to have a set of eyes that you can trust. And I think that's the importance of finding a pediatrician or provider that you actually feel supported by, not presided over — one that will work with you, support your decision making, but that can still look for little things that could come up in a baby, like torticollis, or milestone concerns, deficiencies, a whole host of things. So that's a hard one. No set number, but we do appreciate the extra eyes. I agree.

Should I throw away my Stanley water bottle?

No. Cheers. But you should throw away your plastic water bottle. Yes. Never drink out of plastic. Please use glass. There are too many good options now. Nobody needs plastic anymore.

All right, last one. We often get personal ones when we do these Q&As, and one personal one did come in for the two of you. That question is: what school did you each go to to get your degrees?

We went to the same medical school — it's National University of Health Sciences up in the Chicagoland area. I did my undergraduate in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I'm from Wisconsin. I did my undergraduate in public health at the University of Georgia. So we feel like we're the northern and southern sisters, born from different parents but like soul sisters that were meant to meet.

Final question for both of you: how has meeting each other shaped your lives?

Wow, that's a big question. Neither of us have a sister, so I think for me it's really — it's rare to find somebody that you connect with so deeply and on so many different levels. So for me in general, it's just been really, really special to have somebody that you can lean on, who understands you, who will listen, very supportive. It's been a game changer. I'm not somebody that typically has a lot of friends — I like a couple of really, really close friends, and I appreciate that. So Rachel's been a huge support for me over the years.

And Carly, it has changed my life for the better. You have these people in your life that come in and definitely change it for the better, and it's a small group — I could count on one hand, and she's one of those. She is my soul sister, and she's one of the most kind, honest, supportive people. I can be all of me with her. She lets me be weird and silly. And there's no one I would rather be doing this with.

Thank you for joining us at the Down To Birth Show. You can reach us @downtobirthshow on Instagram or email us at Contact@DownToBirthShow.com. All of Cynthia’s classes and Trisha’s breastfeeding services are offered live online, serving women and couples everywhere. Please remember this information is made available to you for educational and informational purposes only. It is in no way a substitute for medical advice. For our full disclaimer visit downtobirthshow.com/disclaimer. Thanks for tuning in, and as always, hear everyone and listen to yourself.